Means testing.

Old Sep 26th 2012, 12:32 am
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Default Means testing.

You can have your glass half full or half empty, you can be full of positivity or surround yourself in negativity, but I can't see how anyone can deny the inevitabilty of means testing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ick-Clegg.html

It's always been there, of course, i.e. if you have 'x' amount in savings you are not eligble for 'y'. There's the ongonig debate about whether seniors savings/home equity should be used to fund their care in their final years and so on.

Whilst I disagree with the wealthy being paid a heating allowance, bus passes, etc I also feel that those of us who have returned, or are thinking of returning, will be subject to a 'tax' that dilutes our endeavours and entrepreneurship.

The link I put on "The Reall NHS" thread., is only the beginning.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...o-private.html
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 12:49 am
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Default Re: Means testing.

It all depends where they put the "bar" and knowing how things work, as in the past, those who worked hard, saved, paid off mortgages to own their own homes, had no inheritences or hand outs always end up paying the price! Why should some people just because they worked and saved hard, be denied those old age benefits like a bus pass, heating help and free tv just because they have savings and a mortgage free house. Why should they then be expected to take their equity out of their homes? They were wise enough to invest in property, location and in some cases went without to achieve this. Yes, people like Lord Sugar should not really take bus pass or heating help, but honestly he probably would not ride on a bus anyway and as for heating his mansion, he probably would not want the pittance for heating.
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 6:41 am
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Default Re: Means testing.

Im not sure what it has to do with being positive or negative, it makes perfect sense that the well off dont get taxpayer funded benefits.
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 7:13 am
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Default Re: Means testing.

Ah but as feelbritish says, where do you set the bar?

Set the bar at millionaires and you don't make enough. Set the bar at well-to-do middle-class people and you set off a firestorm of resentment from the people who believe they are successful only through their own efforts and that those 'lazy-beer-swilling-benefits-scrounging-doleites don't deserve my money.'

Of course they didn't make that money only by their own brilliance, but also because they had lots of advantages both societal and intellectual, that others don't have. And of course most poor people are not beer-swilling doleites.' But the great British middle class will never see it that way, and any politician who tries to persuade them will lose his or her job.

btw I'm an entrepreneur and I never get the argument that increased taxes would stop me wanting to work hard. I do what I do because I'm driven to do it. If taxes go up and I need more money, then I'll need to be creative with my business and find ways to make more money. It's ludicrous to argue that if taxes go up, I'll just decide to go get a job in an office and stop helping the economy. I'd rather scrape out my eyeballs with a spoon!
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 12:12 pm
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Default Re: Means testing.

Originally Posted by sallysimmons
I'm an entrepreneur and I never get the argument that increased taxes would stop me wanting to work hard. I do what I do because I'm driven to do it.

I've always been mystified by this idea of a brain drain; that people with talent will simply up sticks and move to another country. Just like that.

As if these other countries where a better lifestyle (with lower taxes) is a given, is crying out for them. One wonders how these places became such paradises without having a bit of talent of their own.

Not to mention the immigration rules.

Dear America. I've decided to leave the UK and I will be favouring you with my residency. This is just to let you know I'm arriving next Monday. Could you have a car meet me at the airport, thanks very much.
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 2:42 pm
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Default Re: Means testing.

I'll take one example - the free bus pass. I'd reserve something like this for the genuinely needy, i.e. those that really do have a low income in retirement. I just don't see how it's good public policy to spend taxpayers money - taxpayers who may be younger and/or have far less wealth than those getting free passes - on something like this. And I did like the comments under that article decrying socialism on the one hand and then essentially saying "keep your hands off my socialist free bus pass and heating allowance".
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 7:45 pm
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Default Re: Means testing.

Originally Posted by Giantaxe
I'll take one example - the free bus pass. I'd reserve something like this for the genuinely needy, i.e. those that really do have a low income in retirement. I just don't see how it's good public policy to spend taxpayers money - taxpayers who may be younger and/or have far less wealth than those getting free passes - on something like this. And I did like the comments under that article decrying socialism on the one hand and then essentially saying "keep your hands off my socialist free bus pass and heating allowance".
I agree.

My Mum herself says that she and her pals often just go out on with their passes for something to do, and then some of the seniors will be complaining about young people getting on and cluttering up the bus.
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 8:24 pm
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Default Re: Means testing.

Originally Posted by sallysimmons
Ah but as feelbritish says, where do you set the bar?

Set the bar at millionaires and you don't make enough. Set the bar at well-to-do middle-class people and you set off a firestorm of resentment from the people who believe they are successful only through their own efforts and that those 'lazy-beer-swilling-benefits-scrounging-doleites don't deserve my money.'

Of course they didn't make that money only by their own brilliance, but also because they had lots of advantages both societal and intellectual, that others don't have. And of course most poor people are not beer-swilling doleites.' But the great British middle class will never see it that way, and any politician who tries to persuade them will lose his or her job.

btw I'm an entrepreneur and I never get the argument that increased taxes would stop me wanting to work hard. I do what I do because I'm driven to do it. If taxes go up and I need more money, then I'll need to be creative with my business and find ways to make more money. It's ludicrous to argue that if taxes go up, I'll just decide to go get a job in an office and stop helping the economy. I'd rather scrape out my eyeballs with a spoon!
No doubt about it, entrepeneurs have to be well rewarded or we would be in a real pickle. Take Richard Branson for instance, as irritating as he is, many people forget that he not only creates wealth for himself but he also creates wealth for many other people. He does not sit on his money.
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 9:00 pm
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Default Re: Means testing.

Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser
You can have your glass half full or half empty, you can be full of positivity or surround yourself in negativity, but I can't see how anyone can deny the inevitabilty of means testing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ick-Clegg.html

It's always been there, of course, i.e. if you have 'x' amount in savings you are not eligble for 'y'. There's the ongonig debate about whether seniors savings/home equity should be used to fund their care in their final years and so on.

Whilst I disagree with the wealthy being paid a heating allowance, bus passes, etc I also feel that those of us who have returned, or are thinking of returning, will be subject to a 'tax' that dilutes our endeavours and entrepreneurship.

The link I put on "The Reall NHS" thread., is only the beginning.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...o-private.html
And when the new pension of £140 comes in, the government have suggested that this will be paid to everyone regardless of contributions. This, of course, seems unfair to people who have "topped up" their contributions but at least it will put everyone with a decent amount to survive on.

The PM said the extra payments would be covered by a reduction in pension administration costs.
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Old Sep 27th 2012, 2:05 pm
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Default Re: Means testing.

Originally Posted by Giantaxe
I'll take one example - the free bus pass. I'd reserve something like this for the genuinely needy, i.e. those that really do have a low income in retirement. I just don't see how it's good public policy to spend taxpayers money - taxpayers who may be younger and/or have far less wealth than those getting free passes - on something like this. And I did like the comments under that article decrying socialism on the one hand and then essentially saying "keep your hands off my socialist free bus pass and heating allowance".
One angle is that the bus pass is keeping buses going in areas where they wouldn't get enough passengers otherwise. I don't know if that's true, but I've heard the argument. It does help the elderly stay active, which has economic benefits.

Another is that it keeps cars off the road, but by that argument, buses should be free for all. I sometimes wonder if that might not be economically viable if tried. Bus passes might also be doing their bit to keep town centers alive, as the people using them don't need parking.

I think the bus pass should be for 65 minimum, and perhaps 70 and older. It might be good to have a small annual charge such as 20 pounds, but then there's the question of whether the bureaucracy of administering it might cost more than it brings in.

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Old Sep 27th 2012, 2:18 pm
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Default Re: Means testing.

Originally Posted by Bevm
One angle is that the bus pass is keeping buses going in areas where they wouldn't get enough passengers otherwise. I don't know if that's true, but I've heard the argument. It does help the elderly stay active, which has economic benefits.
I don't see either of these as being arguments for a generally available free bus pass. If some routes don't have enough passengers to keep them going then specifically target them with subsidies if they are deemed important. And the elderly with money are going to tend to be the ones who keep active anyway.

Originally Posted by Bevm
Another is that it keeps cars off the road, but by that argument, buses should be free for all. I sometimes wonder if that might not be economically viable if tried. Bus passes might also be doing their bit to keep town centers alive, as the people using them don't need parking.
Sheffield tried the (almost) free bus approach in the '70's. It certainly has more merits than targeting older people regardless of income.
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Old Sep 28th 2012, 3:24 pm
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Default Re: Means testing.

Originally Posted by feelbritish
It all depends where they put the "bar" and knowing how things work, as in the past, those who worked hard, saved, paid off mortgages to own their own homes, had no inheritences or hand outs always end up paying the price! Why should some people just because they worked and saved hard, be denied those old age benefits like a bus pass, heating help and free tv just because they have savings and a mortgage free house. Why should they then be expected to take their equity out of their homes? They were wise enough to invest in property, location and in some cases went without to achieve this. Yes, people like Lord Sugar should not really take bus pass or heating help, but honestly he probably would not ride on a bus anyway and as for heating his mansion, he probably would not want the pittance for heating.
I could not agree more.

It would be too complex to link means testing with the "Why" aspect of someone's wealth or lack thereof (Inherited wealth? Earned wealth? Saved or squandered?). Having largely done without luxuries most of my life and acted responsibly to save for retirement, it galls me to think I might be denied the same benefits that people who've lived the high life, or lived on credit would receive, simply because they have less money than I do.
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Old Sep 28th 2012, 3:28 pm
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Default Re: Means testing.

Originally Posted by Giantaxe
I'll take one example - the free bus pass. I'd reserve something like this for the genuinely needy, i.e. those that really do have a low income in retirement. I just don't see how it's good public policy to spend taxpayers money - taxpayers who may be younger and/or have far less wealth than those getting free passes - on something like this. And I did like the comments under that article decrying socialism on the one hand and then essentially saying "keep your hands off my socialist free bus pass and heating allowance".
There are other advantages of the bus pass though, including the fact it encourages use of public transport (environmentally less harmful), reduces traffic, and probably most importantly, encourages healthy behavour (getting out and about, walking to and from the bus stop, etc.).

[Just saw that these all have already been said!]

Last edited by dunroving; Sep 28th 2012 at 3:31 pm. Reason: Realised I was just repeating what others had said
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Old Oct 2nd 2012, 2:56 pm
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Default Re: Means testing.

Originally Posted by dunroving
I could not agree more.

It would be too complex to link means testing with the "Why" aspect of someone's wealth or lack thereof (Inherited wealth? Earned wealth? Saved or squandered?). Having largely done without luxuries most of my life and acted responsibly to save for retirement, it galls me to think I might be denied the same benefits that people who've lived the high life, or lived on credit would receive, simply because they have less money insert(saved) than I do.
+1 on being galled that I will denied benefits because I was frugal.
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 7:45 pm
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Default Re: Means testing.

Chances are those millionaire retirees don't even bother getting or using a bus pass. I know my mother (far from a millionaire) has one, but only uses it if her car is broken down and she has to go to town. Usually my son will take her where she needs to go and her car is in great shape. Once she's unable to drive there will be 4 drivers nearby and she won't have need on a regular basis to stand and wait for a bus.
The only people I saw using the passes when I drove about and used the bus (paying full fare) seemed genuine low income(hauling home food from Tesco), or never had a car or anyone to drive them places so in my eyes deserved the pass.
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