chris955

Not really, noone seems to like the French for some reason. Its not really a phobia as that would indicate fear and I dont think the French engender fear

bluenose123

It is not quite so simple as that CM.
I would not trust most politicians as far as I could throw them.
Liars, cheats, thieves, I could carry on but you get the gist?
They promise this, that, or the other,but change their mind when elected.

A referendum on the EU was promised years ago by the three main parties
but forgotten once elected.
As Dunroving suggested the UK has not been a democrasy for some time
since a law passed in Parliament can be overturned by unelected beurocrats
in Brussels.
It has taken a relative new party to change the mindset of Tory MPs into
listening to the electorate,simply because of self interest,ie losing their
seats.
It is a pity that every voter did not have to take an intelligence test before
being allowed to vote. But if the serfs can elect a government, surely by the same token they can be trusted to put their crosses on a referendum
ballot?

God knows what can happen in the next few years the way things are going. Just hope the hospitals, doctors surgeries, prisons etc can cope with
demand.

holly_1948

Yes, absolutely.

For better or worse, this decision should be made at cabinet level.

Not by the general population who believe anything that totally unreliable and mercenary news sources tell them.

Panhandle

On a macro level that would indeed be the case, however the general public are now more aware and in my opinion able to make an educated decision on a formula that will insure that full sovereignty is repatriated and new lines drawn to ensure the UK will never again be compromised by faceless individuals.

A realignment which im sure many other relevant members would welcome.

Why do you think people with degree's should have the inherent the right to vote!

To me that sound pretty much elitist. Wasn't it those same degreed economist that actually steered the EU into this cesspit. The man in the street as you put it is the one who is picking up the tab left by your elitist choice.



I think you miss understand democracy, the UK has a very robust system of democracy repatriating many of those powers back to the UK would enhance our system, the UK is a very highly educated society, some of the smartest people you would ever meet live here and not all have high salaried employment.

Panhandle

This is generally the case in all democracies the world over now, is it linked to globalisation, could be, there could be many reasons, perhaps we have too much freedom and now its all about the individual rather than the community.

We have a new challenger, UKIP, though I don't follow this or any other party, I would support UKIP knowing this will force change among the other parties, as has happened.

In a democracy there is not shoe fits all, but there can be a consensus.

Panhandle

Ive weighted up the importance of the metric martyr's, their immeasurably support, both in their imperial thinking on the metrics of such a referendum leads me too the view that they were miles ahead while the others languished like a thick mass of centipedes, drowning in litres of high density mud

Chaunticleer

The common market's great, Britain certainly benefits from that. Otherwise I can't see what we gain from handing over the keys to a democracy that took centuries to build to a 20 year old, untested technocracy. The explanations I hear are typically emotional rather than rational. Usually has something to do with teaching the world to sing in perfect harmony and also some bitching about the US. If we do stay I think we should take a cue from the French, which is to agree to everything the EU wants (or rather dictate this to everyone esle) and then go ahead a do what we damn well please.

englishguygoinghome

You mean the same way that unelected beurocrats in London can create a rule set which forces large numbers of biritsh citizens to give up hope of ever being able to return to their home country because they married a foreigner?

I assume you've never voted for an MEP? Or watched yes (prime) minister?

Rusty Chainsaw

The British public have fallen for a whole load of scaremongering about Europe. How Johnny Foreigner over the channel (who we fought wars against and everything) wants to rule Britain from afar then steal all our women. Or something. And garlic and sausages and snails and Hitler and Naopleon and stuff. It's this sort of hackneyed (not to mention untrue) xenophobia that the likes of UKIP capitalise on mercilessly.

The major industrial powers of the world are dividing themselves into several large power blocks - North America, Europe and China. Without being a leading part of one of these blocks, Britain's presence on the world stage will shrivel and die, and I think Britain's place is as one of the leading lights of Europe. Otherwise, to steal an analogy by Bill Bailey, we're just going to be a small country following America around the world, like a nerdy kid who hangs around with the school bully.

A lot of very negative things would happen if we left Europe - for instance, the likes of Nissan, Honda and Toyota, who build a lot of their Euro-market cars here, would up and leave. Many multinational companies with headquarters in the UK would also leave. The UK stock exchange would be diminished in importance compared to Frankfurt. Sure, we'd still have the Commonwealth to muck in with, but even that doesn't mean a lot anymore, other than more places where the Queen can have her face on the money. It's not like we share in any economic prosperity they might have - Australia and Canada were both almost unshaken by the global recession, but that made no difference to Mother England.

So, if it's a choice between being in the upper echelons of Europe (superstate or not) or independence leading into irrelevance, I choose Europe.

bluenose123

I agree with you EGGH, but you have to start from the top and work down .
People coming into this country, can't speak the language, no intention of trying to learn, and yet get many subsidies which are not available to the people you describe.

As for leaving complicated decisions to the "intelligent" upper classes,
who would you blame for the state the world is in today?
I would hazard a guess that the people responsible have some sort of degree. The only thing they lack is common sense.

If you watched Question Time last week I think that backs up my argument
A lot of these folks do not inhabit the real world.

The two questions I was asked, yes I voted UKIP in the euro election,and
no,I have never watched the TV programme you name.

holly_1948

Well, to play devil's advocate for a bit, one of the important things is Human Rights. Britain's population may (or may not, it's a mixed bag) get humane treatment by their government but as grace, not as a right, due having only an informal national Constitution (unlike most nations).
Most human rights achieved in modern years in the UK arose only out of European action (the 47 nation Council of Europe founded by Britain and France, not just the 27 nation EU founded by Germany and France). See for example EP call for gay equality at http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/...EN&language=EN
Votes for prisoners is another powerful example. You should defeat lawbreakers (most but not all are villains) by outvoting them, not by disenfranchising them. The whole free world agrees, except Britain which sides with Russia, China, Saudi Arabia etc on this issue. The EU is forcing British change on this issue in spite of Tory and Labour opposition.

Britains modernly arise not so much out of the azure main but more out of Europe.

Personally I think UK should never have joined EU back in 1973, but that is totally different from exit bluffing and sabre rattling now. Such brinkmanship could result in disaster and the public is so gullible and the media is controlled by the very richest of the globally rich. Which is why representative democracy, poor as it may be, is nonetheless better than the alternatives.

WEBlue

So very true! a lot of the UK's relative prosperity during the economic bubble came from its strategic position vis-a-vis the EU--in yet not in (such as the Euro). Why would the UK want to change this? Times are tough now, but any strength the UK has globally is as a major EU partner.

Change the terms of the partnership, maybe... (not sure how much that can be done)...but the UK will not survive in any way we recognise if it leaves the EU.

Charismatic

I thought we signed up to the ECHR prior to the EU? Different things aren't they?

Of course I don't mind a referendum but then I realized it came with the caveat of reelecting the same conservative government which could be devastating. Not even a bag of referendum sugar will make that go down.

holly_1948

You are right, but the vast majority of the public believes the opposite if you ask them. Cameron has recently conflated the two intentionally.

Which is why representative democracy, bad as it is (and it is corrupt), is nonetheless better than referendums.

Rusty Chainsaw

There's also that whole fable about how further European integration will lead to a "loss of Britishness" - yet it hasn't happened anywhere else in Europe. I was in Paris back at the end of last year, and, despite the fact that I paid for my crepes with Euros, I still knew I was in France surrounded by thousands of very French people whose Frenchness was in no way diminished by the fact they were full practicing members of the EU.