Originally Posted by scoobydoo

I dont worry at all about raising my kids in the UK, I worry very much about raising them in Australia.

I find Australian kids rude, loud with no manners or respect, in general for anything. Having spent the last couple of weeks using public transport, I am surprised to what I have witnessed - kids shouting, graffitying,littering and generally bullying old and elderly people who use public transport. It seems that their Australian parents let them out and dont care what they get up to. They take no responsibility - and to be honest, I find their Australian loud and brash voices annoy me on a daily basis.

I have spent two years working as a counsellor, and without breaching confidentiality, am more than 100% certain where I want to bring up my kids and its not here. Some of the stories I have been told, including over abuse of drugs, child sexual abuse, bullying, violence and crime have astounded me. I thought I was pretty switched on having lived in the UK, but no. I am leaving Australia for good in two days time and just cant wait to go.

No, in my opinion, its not a better place to raise kids. In my opinion Australia is full of false people, they tell you they feel good, when they dont, they ask you how your day's going, and dont want to know when its not going well. They appear friendly, kind and helpful. If you dig deeper, there is nothing there - no intelligence, no empathy, no etiquette, no character. In two years I have not made any Australian friends, put it honestly, I dont like them as people, dont like their culture, and more importantly I dont want my kids raised as Australians. I am proud to be British... and so will they be.

My opinion, I know......each to their own.

Originally Posted by scoobydoo

No, in my opinion, its not a better place to raise kids. In my opinion Australia is full of false people, they tell you they feel good, when they dont, they ask you how your day's going, and dont want to know when its not going well. They appear friendly, kind and helpful. If you dig deeper, there is nothing there - no intelligence, no empathy, no etiquette, no character. In two years I have not made any Australian friends, put it honestly, I dont like them as people, dont like their culture, and more importantly I dont want my kids raised as Australians. I am proud to be British... and so will they be.

Originally Posted by St.Georges Girl

Hiya Kriss, I just want to say that I wouldn't have been happy for our son to walk home form his girlfriends house in Currambine along Burns Beach Road to Iluka, I always went to pick him up before he could drive. He walked home from Ocean Reef once, part the way with mates and then the rest of the way on his own. A group of lads in a car stopped along side him, almost as soon as his friends had turned into their roads and beat the living shit out of him. He was 16. He and a friend were on the train going to the WACA (during the day) and had to give up their money & phones, because they were threatened with knives and punched and kicked by a gang of both boys and girls who got on the train at Warwick. It happens everywhere. Recently our friends 14 year old was beaten to a pulp on a Sunday lunchtime down at Iluka Park by some kids who live in C'bine and Connolly. As the poor kid knew where one of the gang lived, our friends went to his house. The following w/e a large gang of kids gathered outside our friends house and started throwing rocks over the wall and at the front door and windows. The dad phoned for my OH to go up and help him sort them out, which he did, but they came back later and caused quite a bit of damage. The case is now going to court.

BTW Issie and Tracey, there are secondary schools here that have a police attendance and have done for many years.

Tracey, all I can say to you is that by reading your posts, I feel you are being too analytical and taking in all the tripe about the UK, probably much like you took in all the hype about Oz before you came here. Only you and your OH can make the decision, but for me personally, I regret enormously bringing our son here away from his extended family and always will. He has missed out on growing up with his cousins and spending precious time, holidays etc.with all our family, all of which are very close. We are going home next year when he finishes uni and nothing anyone says will make any difference. I know in my heart of hearts, even after 10½ long years here, that life for us was better back home and being with family means everything. My heart isn't here, I left it along with my soul in England. I just don't belong here. It's a shallow place and unless you have lots of $, you are pretty much stuck here with just beaches, ocean, Adventure World and parks.

Originally Posted by pommybird

Tracey - How do you know crime, muggings etc are more prolific in the UK? What can I say that I haven't said before - it's all just a load of media garabage!

I must admit one of the main reasons we moved to Perth in the first place was because we felt our kids would have a better life out there - we were worried about drugs, anti social beahviour, the stressed out education system etc. all not being perfect enough in the UK for our little darlings!

Once out in Oz I realised what a crock of sh*t it all was - life for them was no better in Oz - and in fact I felt they missed out big time not having family around and I was not impressed with the education system at all! I also realised their lives in the UK had been pretty damn good but I had just let the media rule my head and was totally taken in by all the crap constantly in the papers and on the telly (GMTV in particular!)

Like everyone says you've got to pick your areas in the UK but isn't the same true in Perth! I know there are some places I would not have stepped foot in in Perth!

We have been home for 16 months now and my kids are happier than ever - they are both loving and thriving in school, they play outside most days - if it's cold they wrap up - we spend days on the beach, at the park, in the New Forest - to say kids don't play outside 'cos of the dangers from weirdos is just bloody ridiculous (not having a go at you but whoever has told you this!). And when it is cold we can cosy up in the evening with the central heating on full blast and watch some decent telly!

But more than all that the kids have cousins, grandparents and uncles that love them very much and can be part of their lives as they grow up.

I know you've been deliberating for a while now and at then end of the day only you and you OH can make the decision but please don't let all this 'nonsense' about the UK put you off - 'cos that's what it is - complete nonsense!

Anyway best of luck with the decision making - it'll all come good you'll see!

Originally Posted by TraceyW

See, this sounds fab when, like us, you have smaller kids



This is what scares me when those little kids grow up.

Oh confused.......

February will be final decision time for me. Oh sh*t. What if I make the wrong decision?

Originally Posted by pommybird

Tracey - you just can't cover every single eventuality and 'what if' - you've just got to take the plunge either way and stick to it - what if you do make the wrong decision - that's what life is all about - ups and downs, experiences and learning from our mistakes - I know it's hard but try to stop worrying yourself to death, go with your gut feeling and just see what happens.....good luck!

Originally Posted by TraceyW

Don't sit on the fence scoob!!!! These are your opinions and you are totally entitled to them and I'm glad you haven't felt intimidated on here to express them. As a person who has 'walked the walk' so to speak, you are able to air such strong opinions.

I hope everything goes well for you back home. Good luck to you.

Originally Posted by ShozInOz

We changed our mind in Australia roughly *one million times* about where we wanted to live. One issue was that we never planned to move there. A job was offered to me, and I snapped it up in about three seconds. We moved to Aus and thought, "oh, we live 12,000 miles away". (Though I don't know what can prepare anyone for such a move.) I suffered pretty extreme homesickness for a few months. Then we were 50/50, 60/40, 40/60 for a long time . I was quite open about this and generally saw pros and cons on both sides. (I even accepted a new job in Aus just before we returned, then rejected it. We didn't know what was for the best.) When we had a baby, my wife loved Aus once she found some friends as they were out every day in the park, by the beach, at the pool, etc. But family issues came into it, and I still longed for the vibe and geography of the UK as I had experienced it as a non-parent, and seeing some very good friends and family. Also I was in a low paying job (lecturer) on a single income, which did limit us somewhat (though somehow we were financially better off than we are now with me earning much more and wife working P/T). The family emphasis changed when my wife lost her Mum a week before we returned.

What we knew then is the same now - our day to day life was better in Australia, and our occasional life was better in the UK. The former is still quite true, the latter not really. What we did not account for is that what matters with a child (for us) is the day to day life because this has the most impact on our quality of life and stress. The occasional things that we enjoyed (hill walking, driving up and down the country, short breaks to Europe, going out here there and everywhere) without children are mostly now not feasible with children for us. Any enjoyment that they bring is outweighed by the sheer stress involved. As I say, this is different probably with older children, or with none. We did not factor this into our decision to return, but even if we had, it wouldn't have mattered enough until we felt it. And coming back was a great move, because had we not, we would STILL be wondering where to live, as are many other people on this forum who are still in Australia and were wondering where to live when I was there. That is not a good place to be. But in order to get out of this you have to convince yourself, one way or the other - otherwise you are stuck in Limbo. Many posts on here are from people trying to convince themselves by writing about their situation. That is a perfectly valid thing to do. It doesn't mean it will work out that way.

On moving back, the first summer was great, but come late 2006 there was no 50/50 any more - I knew we had outgrown the UK. And I have only had occasional doubts since (and none for many months). This is quite different to our time in Sydney, which was characterised by uncertainty (hence many Expat posts then, few now).

It really comes down to feelings. In Australia I experienced joy (an enormous sense of wellbeing, many times just walking to work - I put it down to sunlight), calm (again, sunlight related I think), fun (outdoors, a lot), isolation (miles from anywhere, stuck in Sydney, like living on an island), annoyance (during intense heat, especially with flies), light (important for me), positivity (infectious, sometimes annoyingly parochial), doubt (about where to live). In the UK, I experience stress (about the pace of life, traffic, cost of living), fear (about the future, about going out at night - much of it probably quite irrational on inspection), discomfort (cold, wet), dark (cloud, a lot), negativity/pessimism (among many people, expressed spontaneously and without prompting), certainty (about where to live), joy (which is unfortunately far too seasonal). I don't accept the Daily Mail view (God knows if it was the last newspaper on earth I would only use it for kindling material). I just accept my experience.

The important thing to emphasise is that these are just my feelings and perceptions, and I always try to make that clear. This is why almost everything on here is, depressingly, of very little use whatsoever in helping anyone to make a decision - most of it is simply not applicable. Everyone is in different situations with regard to expectations, values, family, interests, activities, careers, finances, etc. Even people living in places that would appall us may be more satisfied with life. We are both luck and unlucky to have a choice.

Originally Posted by Vim Fuego

If I ever try and take my (Aussie-born) daughter back to the UK for good then I should be locked-up for child abuse.

Originally Posted by scoobydoo

I dont worry at all about raising my kids in the UK, I worry very much about raising them in Australia.

I find Australian kids rude, loud with no manners or respect, in general for anything. Having spent the last couple of weeks using public transport, I am surprised to what I have witnessed - kids shouting, graffitying,littering and generally bullying old and elderly people who use public transport. It seems that their Australian parents let them out and dont care what they get up to. They take no responsibility - and to be honest, I find their Australian loud and brash voices annoy me on a daily basis.

I have spent two years working as a counsellor, and without breaching confidentiality, am more than 100% certain where I want to bring up my kids and its not here. Some of the stories I have been told, including over abuse of drugs, child sexual abuse, bullying, violence and crime have astounded me. I thought I was pretty switched on having lived in the UK, but no. I am leaving Australia for good in two days time and just cant wait to go.

No, in my opinion, its not a better place to raise kids. In my opinion Australia is full of false people, they tell you they feel good, when they dont, they ask you how your day's going, and dont want to know when its not going well. They appear friendly, kind and helpful. If you dig deeper, there is nothing there - no intelligence, no empathy, no etiquette, no character. In two years I have not made any Australian friends, put it honestly, I dont like them as people, dont like their culture, and more importantly I dont want my kids raised as Australians. I am proud to be British... and so will they be.

My opinion, I know......each to their own.

Originally Posted by scoobydoo

I dont worry at all about raising my kids in the UK, I worry very much about raising them in Australia.

I find Australian kids rude, loud with no manners or respect, in general for anything. Having spent the last couple of weeks using public transport, I am surprised to what I have witnessed - kids shouting, graffitying,littering and generally bullying old and elderly people who use public transport. It seems that their Australian parents let them out and dont care what they get up to. They take no responsibility - and to be honest, I find their Australian loud and brash voices annoy me on a daily basis.

I have spent two years working as a counsellor, and without breaching confidentiality, am more than 100% certain where I want to bring up my kids and its not here. Some of the stories I have been told, including over abuse of drugs, child sexual abuse, bullying, violence and crime have astounded me. I thought I was pretty switched on having lived in the UK, but no. I am leaving Australia for good in two days time and just cant wait to go.

No, in my opinion, its not a better place to raise kids. In my opinion Australia is full of false people, they tell you they feel good, when they dont, they ask you how your day's going, and dont want to know when its not going well. They appear friendly, kind and helpful. If you dig deeper, there is nothing there - no intelligence, no empathy, no etiquette, no character. In two years I have not made any Australian friends, put it honestly, I dont like them as people, dont like their culture, and more importantly I dont want my kids raised as Australians. I am proud to be British... and so will they be.

My opinion, I know......each to their own.

Originally Posted by scoobydoo

I have, which is why I am leaving. I am entitled to my own opinion regardless of whether you like it or not, regardless of where I have worked since I have lived in Australia.