Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Rest of the World

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Jul 5th 2017, 7:30 pm   #16
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,087
morpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pistolpete2 View Post
It's not about ME though is it? The OP has not got any connections to the Caribbean, so far as we are aware, so if it was complicated for me, it will be equally or more complicated for the OP.
I thought OP had one of his criteria as a reasonable cost of living. That might eliminate some of the islands I would think.
morpeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 5th 2017, 10:09 pm   #17
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Cayman Islands
Posts: 3,238
Gordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
I have heard many nice reports about Grand Cayman, only drawback is everyone says very expensive.
It's very expensive for foreigners to retire here, that's for sure! My wife and I live quietly for somewhere between USD40-50K a year, not counting vacations. But as citizens, now, we don't have to invest a fortune in a home and meet the exorbitant annual income requirements. I wouldn't recommend anybody come here for the express purpose of retirement, unless they're very rich. And it's worth bearing in mind that our politicians don't welcome foreign retirees in any case!

Last edited by Gordon Barlow; Jul 5th 2017 at 10:12 pm.
Gordon Barlow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 6th 2017, 7:33 am   #18
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Algarve, Portugal
Posts: 2,562
Pistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
I thought OP had one of his criteria as a reasonable cost of living. That might eliminate some of the islands I would think.
Indeed, as has been stated, the cost of living in the islands is typically going to be the same or higher than the UK. In my mind the only clear savings are in (not) heating your house and petrol which is typically much cheaper. In St Lucia, mains water is very cheap.

We've been in the UK for almost three years now and still can't get over the shopping freedom offered from UK supermarkets in terms of variety and value, particularly specials. For us, the UK grocery shop is way way cheaper than it was in the Caribbean (St Lucia) - we bought Trinidadian and Bajan brands of beans etc. to save money over Heinz etc. - and Wetherspoons (overall very civilised here in Weymouth) is cheaper than a rum shop, except for rum . I can't think of anything in the grocery shop that is cheaper and even the same in the Caribbean, including chicken (unless it was St Lucian frozen chicken on special) and pork like for like. Even St Lucian hot pepper sauces are the same price here. Danish pork and bacon is dirt cheap. Aldi chicken is excellent value and so is much else there, including good wines. Even though duty on alcohol is typically low in the Caribbean we used to shop at outlets to save money on wine but wine in the UK (typically varietals) is still cheaper than in the Caribbean even before the 25% off for buying six bottles here.

(Aldi and Lidl will be there for us when we shop in Portugal this winter)

If you spend six months in the Caribbean you are still going to be UK tax resident AND you have to work out what to do with your home in the UK. You would get none of the tax benefits from being in the (typically tax haven*) islands until you actually emigrate AND this will typically mean owning property in order to have an easy ride with Immigration from day one.

*You would pay no tax on a UK pension, capital gains and dividends - except Barbados where you would pay tax on your world income, like here.

Last edited by Pistolpete2; Jul 6th 2017 at 7:56 am. Reason: In St Lucia, mains water is very cheap.
Pistolpete2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 6th 2017, 8:21 am   #19
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Algarve, Portugal
Posts: 2,562
Pistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond reputePistolpete2 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
I thought OP had one of his criteria as a reasonable cost of living. That might eliminate some of the islands I would think.
When traveling through the islands we made it our business to check supermarket prices. From what we could see, they are very similar in Antigua, St Kitts, Dominica, St Lucia and Grenada. Slightly higher in Barbados and strangely slightly cheaper in BVI. Martinique had across-the-board add-ons to mainland French prices for shipping. Conglomerates such as Massy and Goddards operate throughout the English Eastern Caribbean and even Jamaica in the latter case.

Bermuda is very expensive but then there is import duty on just about everything, high labour and rent costs, high risk on chilled items such as fruit and salad items and very expensive shipping and handling from the US gateways for what is a tiny market of just 60,000 people.

It is important to note that tourism pervades the islands and that big hotel groups do everything they can to import items directly to circumvent supposed agency arrangements for the islands' traditional importers. The importers who can still control some things therefore maintain significant margins to supermarkets and retailers to sustain themselves and the consumer feels the heat.

Last edited by Pistolpete2; Jul 6th 2017 at 8:32 am.
Pistolpete2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 6th 2017, 5:48 pm   #20
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Cayman Islands
Posts: 3,238
Gordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
I thought OP had one of his criteria as a reasonable cost of living. That might eliminate some of the islands I would think.
Well, the OP had a whole laundry-list of criteria, and he didn't put them in any order - so who knows?! On the cost-of-living subject, in our expensive island, food- and household-prices are the least of our worries. The biggest single expense is over-70s medical insurance, and house-insurance too, until we dropped the hurricane-insurance. Those are the killers.

The cost of petrol is low, on small islands, even when the price isn't. I drive about 3000 miles a year, and my wife does about 10,000 that because she has a house she rents out on the other side of the island. Our cars are ancient gas-guzzlers, but it doesn't bother us because of our low mileage.

And of course income-tax is optional throughout the Caribbean, if retirees arrange their affairs properly and prudently...
Gordon Barlow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 6th 2017, 5:52 pm   #21
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,087
morpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow View Post
Well, the OP had a whole laundry-list of criteria, and he didn't put them in any order - so who knows?! On the cost-of-living subject, in our expensive island, food- and household-prices are the least of our worries. The biggest single expense is over-70s medical insurance, and house-insurance too, until we dropped the hurricane-insurance. Those are the killers.

The cost of petrol is low, on small islands, even when the price isn't. I drive about 3000 miles a year, and my wife does about 10,000 that because she has a house she rents out on the other side of the island. Our cars are ancient gas-guzzlers, but it doesn't bother us because of our low mileage.

And of course income-tax is optional throughout the Caribbean, if retirees arrange their affairs properly and prudently...
I find cost of living always interesting to discuss, some items clear but many depend on how one organizes one's affairs, and how one lives. Some people seem hell-bent on wasting money, or not spending wisely. I know people who retired in Mexico, on lives well on $1100 a month, another struggles on $2,200 a month.(Unfortunately security concerns have changed Mexico as a retirement destination).
morpeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 7th 2017, 10:50 pm   #22
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Cayman Islands
Posts: 3,238
Gordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
(Unfortunately security concerns have changed Mexico as a retirement destination).
Maybe in some parts, Morpeth - maybe in many parts. But not all, I think. I have friends who live comfortably and contentedly in a town south of Cancun, and my wife still reckons we should retire to Lake Chapala, south of Guadalajara in the west of the country. Guadalajara is an infamous drug-cartel city, but - again - only parts of it are dangerous. Hey, I know people who live in Chicago and Glasgow, for goodness sake! My son sometimes flies to Guatemala via San Pedro Sula in Honduras, which is commonly reported to be the "murder capital" of the entire world. I think it would be pretty dodgy for someone belonging to the wrong gang, though...
Gordon Barlow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 8th 2017, 5:49 pm   #23
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,087
morpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow View Post
Maybe in some parts, Morpeth - maybe in many parts. But not all, I think. I have friends who live comfortably and contentedly in a town south of Cancun, and my wife still reckons we should retire to Lake Chapala, south of Guadalajara in the west of the country. Guadalajara is an infamous drug-cartel city, but - again - only parts of it are dangerous. Hey, I know people who live in Chicago and Glasgow, for goodness sake! My son sometimes flies to Guatemala via San Pedro Sula in Honduras, which is commonly reported to be the "murder capital" of the entire world. I think it would be pretty dodgy for someone belonging to the wrong gang, though...
I agree not all parts, though the violence does seem over time to be spreading, who knows how wide it will spread.

Lake Chapala has a lot of Expats, but also prices seem to be higher there than areas with less Expats.
morpeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 8th 2017, 8:25 pm   #24
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Cayman Islands
Posts: 3,238
Gordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
Lake Chapala has a lot of Expats, but also prices seem to be higher there than areas with less Expats.
I've heard that the Chapala area has excellent Police protection, which is why so many immigrant gringos feel comfortable there. I don't imagine the Police protection comes cheap, and maybe the Police themselves need to pay for their own protection. Who knows?

As for the expats... I must say I would just as soon mix with expats (even Americans, within reason) as locals, anywhere in the world. As a general statement: retirees are looking for a familiar social environment, more than a foreign one. I've lived for most of my adult life as an expat, and have enjoyed it. If the OP is following this conversation - I don't think he should hold out for the experience of living among foreigners who don't share his culture.
Gordon Barlow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 9th 2017, 6:57 am   #25
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,087
morpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow View Post
I've heard that the Chapala area has excellent Police protection, which is why so many immigrant gringos feel comfortable there. I don't imagine the Police protection comes cheap, and maybe the Police themselves need to pay for their own protection. Who knows?

As for the expats... I must say I would just as soon mix with expats (even Americans, within reason) as locals, anywhere in the world. As a general statement: retirees are looking for a familiar social environment, more than a foreign one. I've lived for most of my adult life as an expat, and have enjoyed it. If the OP is following this conversation - I don't think he should hold out for the experience of living among foreigners who don't share his culture.
I spent quite a lot of time in Zacatecas which at the time always surprised me in how safe it was. A few years after I was visiting, in the center of town there was a running gum battle 10 yards from where I used to stay. The violence in Mexico has over the years spread to more and more communities.

Interesting point about Expats. I have also been an Expat for much of my life, and always found interesting Expats moving to another country but seeking as much as possible to re-create the social environment they left. The original OP certainly can choose somewhere with no Expats, though may wish to consider whether the "experience" is by itself really something they are looking for.
morpeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 9th 2017, 10:20 pm   #26
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Cayman Islands
Posts: 3,238
Gordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
Interesting point about Expats. I have also been an Expat for much of my life, and always found interesting Expats moving to another country but seeking as much as possible to re-create the social environment they left. The original OP certainly can choose somewhere with no Expats, though may wish to consider whether the "experience" is by itself really something they are looking for.
Morpeth, I almost agree with you - but my earlier implication that expats need to mix with people who share their own culture, was misleading. Rather, most expats (in my experience) feel the need to mix with people whose cultures are compatible with their own. There's a difference, and I didn't make that clear.

My wife and I have always lived in places where English has been the prevailing language, and perhaps my observation applies only to such places. Our home for the past 40 years has been in a tiny British colony in which expats comprise 70% of the population of 60,000. The societal dividing-line is between the ethnic Caymanians and foreigners. As a general statement, we are more comfortable in the company of a Jamaican gardener or Filipino housemaid or Indian security guard than in the company of an educated native-born Caymanian. The local politicians (ethnic Caymanians all, by law) have structured our society that way, and the situation is supported overwhelmingly by their constituents; we resent it in varying degrees, we expats of all origins, but we learn to live with it.

That observation is fully relevant to the OP's search for a place to feel comfortable in. If he has only minimal overseas experience, he might not fully appreciate what the term "expat" means and signifies. Many online comments from retirees in foreign places assure us that they are regarded as "one of their own" by the natives of their new homes. Except rarely: no, they're not. They're just being treated with courtesy. Be glad for that, of course!
Gordon Barlow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10th 2017, 9:29 am   #27
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,087
morpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow View Post
Morpeth, I almost agree with you - but my earlier implication that expats need to mix with people who share their own culture, was misleading. Rather, most expats (in my experience) feel the need to mix with people whose cultures are compatible with their own. There's a difference, and I didn't make that clear.

My wife and I have always lived in places where English has been the prevailing language, and perhaps my observation applies only to such places. Our home for the past 40 years has been in a tiny British colony in which expats comprise 70% of the population of 60,000. The societal dividing-line is between the ethnic Caymanians and foreigners. As a general statement, we are more comfortable in the company of a Jamaican gardener or Filipino housemaid or Indian security guard than in the company of an educated native-born Caymanian. The local politicians (ethnic Caymanians all, by law) have structured our society that way, and the situation is supported overwhelmingly by their constituents; we resent it in varying degrees, we expats of all origins, but we learn to live with it.

That observation is fully relevant to the OP's search for a place to feel comfortable in. If he has only minimal overseas experience, he might not fully appreciate what the term "expat" means and signifies. Many online comments from retirees in foreign places assure us that they are regarded as "one of their own" by the natives of their new homes. Except rarely: no, they're not. They're just being treated with courtesy. Be glad for that, of course!
"Many online comments from retirees in foreign places assure us that they are regarded as "one of their own" by the natives of their new homes. Except rarely: no, they're not. They're just being treated with courtesy"

- Good Post !
morpeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10th 2017, 11:23 am   #28
I still dont believe it..
 
Joined: Oct 2013
Location: 12 degrees north
Posts: 1,359
uk_grenada has a reputation beyond reputeuk_grenada has a reputation beyond reputeuk_grenada has a reputation beyond reputeuk_grenada has a reputation beyond reputeuk_grenada has a reputation beyond reputeuk_grenada has a reputation beyond reputeuk_grenada has a reputation beyond reputeuk_grenada has a reputation beyond reputeuk_grenada has a reputation beyond reputeuk_grenada has a reputation beyond reputeuk_grenada has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Interesting discussion. I believe there are a number of interesting dynamics at work in the caribbean. You have the educated/travelled locals who are normally courteous, but you know in time that some quietly despise your country colour or accent, and for some, their prejudice makes them more acceptable to their group/political party/friends. There are the uneducated untravelled locals who sometimes are kind lovely people but some do see you as a cash machine or some relic of slavery.

You definitely see prejudice locally between shades of skin, accents, even castes in the case of the indians, its not just about white vs black... Because so many locals in the past moved to the uk, when they return, they are sometimes thought of as arrogant rich english people, and there is prejudice against them... Today, people tend to go to live in america but generally never return, but theres a new thing - people go to china for an education, and some stay there... I have a feeling that the chinese are the next bogeymen..

I guess there are bigots/racists etc in every society and country, every group hates at least one other group, so i suppose it is human nature to a degree, and having the company of some of your group is a good thing, those here longer will know more and can help you understand the dynamics.
__________________
Just over 64.3% of statistics are made up, the rest are lies.
uk_grenada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 10th 2017, 10:11 pm   #29
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: Cayman Islands
Posts: 3,238
Gordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond reputeGordon Barlow has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
I agree not all parts [of Mexico], though the violence does seem over time to be spreading, who knows how wide it will spread.
I guess you're right! This from today's news... Sigh.
Cartel Gunmen Attack Rural Mayor’s Wife in Border Region
Gordon Barlow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 11th 2017, 11:12 am   #30
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,087
morpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond reputemorpeth has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Sunny winter destinations, other than Sothern Europe or USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by uk_grenada View Post
Interesting discussion. I believe there are a number of interesting dynamics at work in the caribbean. You have the educated/travelled locals who are normally courteous, but you know in time that some quietly despise your country colour or accent, and for some, their prejudice makes them more acceptable to their group/political party/friends. There are the uneducated untravelled locals who sometimes are kind lovely people but some do see you as a cash machine or some relic of slavery.

You definitely see prejudice locally between shades of skin, accents, even castes in the case of the indians, its not just about white vs black... Because so many locals in the past moved to the uk, when they return, they are sometimes thought of as arrogant rich english people, and there is prejudice against them... Today, people tend to go to live in america but generally never return, but theres a new thing - people go to china for an education, and some stay there... I have a feeling that the chinese are the next bogeymen..

I guess there are bigots/racists etc in every society and country, every group hates at least one other group, so i suppose it is human nature to a degree, and having the company of some of your group is a good thing, those here longer will know more and can help you understand the dynamics.
Just human nature.
morpeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Rest of the World


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 1:51 pm.


Powered by vBulletin: ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 1999-2010 BritishExpats.com