Hatunen

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:57:05 GMT, Deep Frayed Morgues
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

    >On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:39:10 -0400, "Richard" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>"Deep Frayed Morgues" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
    >>message news:[email protected]...
    >>> I detest work. It bores and stresses me, and I am constantly
    >>> looking at ways to do less of it for more money.
    >>Perhaps rather than thinking about less-for-more, you should think about
    >>different. Find a line of work that you enjoy and you won't feel compelled
    >>to find ways to work fewer hours. Not that I'm advocating the work schedule
    >>you describe further down in your message, far from it, between 35 and 40
    >>hours a week is about as much as anyone should have to work IMHO but the
    >>hours you do work will pass by a lot less painfully if you enjoy whatever it
    >>is you spend them doing.
    >Work is by definition an unpleasant thing you do for money.

What dictionary is that? Certainly there is no such definition at
http://www.dictionary.com.

    >Otherwise you would not need to be paid to do it.

Even someone who enjoys what he does needs to buy groceries.

    >Sure some jobs are better than
    >others, but I believe that the more you get paid, the easier your job
    >is, and the more respect you receive, thus making for more enjoyable
    >work.
    >What you say is of course quite obvious. I guess my attitude has been
    >that I would rather work hard for 9 or 10 months of the year, and
    >travel (my main and most expensive hobby) the rest of the time. It
    >doesn't bother me to work hard during that time, as long as money is
    >coming in.

Teaching is definitely for you.

    >>> This is an attitude that was viewed as blasphemy last time (early
    >>> 2001) I was in the US. In the company I was working at, it was
    >>> expected that everyone arrived an hour before they started getting
    >>> paid, and stopped two hours after they stopped getting paid. A
    >>> large number of them worked at least one day on the weekend too.
    >>Surely there are laws against forcing people to do this?

There are.

    >They were not being forced as such, it was just expected, and if you
    >wanted your bonus, or a chance to work your way up in the company,
    >your chances were greatly reduced by not putting in that extra
    >'little' bit.

It still violates Wage and Hour laws.

If you file a Wage and Hour claim after a period of time you will
be awarded back pay, in this case at overtime rates, and that
makes a pretty nice bonus.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Deep Frayed Morgues

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:39:10 -0400, "Richard" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Deep Frayed Morgues" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
    >message news:[email protected]...
    >> I detest work. It bores and stresses me, and I am constantly
    >> looking at ways to do less of it for more money.
    >Perhaps rather than thinking about less-for-more, you should think about
    >different. Find a line of work that you enjoy and you won't feel compelled
    >to find ways to work fewer hours. Not that I'm advocating the work schedule
    >you describe further down in your message, far from it, between 35 and 40
    >hours a week is about as much as anyone should have to work IMHO but the
    >hours you do work will pass by a lot less painfully if you enjoy whatever it
    >is you spend them doing.

Work is by definition an unpleasant thing you do for money. Otherwise
you would not need to be paid to do it. Sure some jobs are better than
others, but I believe that the more you get paid, the easier your job
is, and the more respect you receive, thus making for more enjoyable
work.

What you say is of course quite obvious. I guess my attitude has been
that I would rather work hard for 9 or 10 months of the year, and
travel (my main and most expensive hobby) the rest of the time. It
doesn't bother me to work hard during that time, as long as money is
coming in.

    >> This is an attitude that was viewed as blasphemy last time (early
    >> 2001) I was in the US. In the company I was working at, it was
    >> expected that everyone arrived an hour before they started getting
    >> paid, and stopped two hours after they stopped getting paid. A
    >> large number of them worked at least one day on the weekend too.
    >Surely there are laws against forcing people to do this?

They were not being forced as such, it was just expected, and if you
wanted your bonus, or a chance to work your way up in the company,
your chances were greatly reduced by not putting in that extra
'little' bit.
---
DFM

GW *AWOL* Chimpzilla

Go Fig wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>, Ronald Hands
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> js wrote:
    >>
    >> >
    >> > Europeans, stop blindly following the American model... it is not the
    >> > utopian society it portrays itself as being.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> One who finds it less than utopian is author Jeremy Rifkin, whose new
    >> book is titled The European Dream: How Europe's vision of the future is
    >> quietly eclipsing the American dream.
    >> Rifkin believes that the European Dream, with its emphasis on living
    >> rather than just getting, is one with increasing appeal, and that the
    >> American Dream, characterized by materialism, greed and individualism,
    >> is becoming a rejected model.
    >> As the jacket blurb summarizes: "We Americans live (and die) by the
    >> work ethic and the dictates of efficiency. Europeans place more of a
    >> premium on leisure and even idleness."
    >> And:
    >> "Americans are increasingly overworked, underpaid, squeezed for time,
    >> and unsure about their prospects for a better life. One-third of all
    >> Americans say they no longer even *believe* in the American dream."
    >> Meanwhile, the European Union's $10.5 trillion GDP now eclipses that
    >> of the United States, making it the largest economy in the world.
    >
    > I see the U.S. GDP for 2003 at 10.9 trillion and will grow at 4.3% in
    > 2004 (IMF) and the combined europe at 10.5, but at 2.2% growth.

Ever wonder what happened to YOUR share of that alleged 4.3% growth?
    >
    > jay
    > Wed Oct 27, 2004
    > mailto:[email protected]
    >
    >
    >>
    >> -- Ron

--
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me once, shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again."
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Cindy hamilton

Jonathan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<483un0lc2o3rmp3kju8enknp9h845l1v50@news>...
    > When an American friend told me people in the US only have two weeks
    > of paid leave PER YEAR I could scarcely believe it. He said yeah but
    > we get paid public holidays.
    >
    > In the UK we get 4 to 5 weeks paid leave plus public holidays . Other
    > countries like France get 5 to 6 weeks plus public holidays. Plus
    > they only work 35 hours per week yet they are one of the most
    > productive countries in the world.
    >
    > If this is true about the US, how can the average American live under
    > such a system and not lose their mind???
    >
    > Life can't all be about work. It seems such a system would breed
    > highly neurotic and hysterical people. I wouldn't want to live like
    > that no matter how much they paid me.

I'm a computer programmer.

I get 4 weeks vacation a year, plus 10 holidays, plus about 2.5 weeks sick
leave. It is accrued at a rate of 13.33 hours per month. I can accrue
320 hours (8 weeks) before I stop accruing and start losing vacation days.

I am nearly at my maximum accrual. Some months I manage to take off two
days and thus fail to lose any vacation time. Some months I don't. I
can't remember the last time I used a sick day.

I don't like to travel. Sometimes I'll take a day or two or five to work
on my house or garden. At Christmas I usually take off the week between
Christmas and New Year's and hang around the house with my husband. Once
in a great while, I'll take off a day and read or something (especially if
there's a new Terry Pratchett novel out).

There's nothing stopping me from taking my vacation days, except I don't
want to. I have plenty of time to do everything I want. I don't have any
children, so my time is pretty much my own.

Cindy Hamilton

Rod Speed

Magda <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote
    > ... Jonathan writes:

    > ... > When an American friend told me people in the US only have two weeks
    > ... > of paid leave PER YEAR I could scarcely believe it. He said yeah but
    > ... > we get paid public holidays.

    > ... Many people don't get any paid leave at all.

    > Now, you *have* to be kidding us. Are you
    > telling us that slave work is legal over there??

Slaves dont get paid at all, stupid.

Rod Speed

Mark Hewitt <[email protected]>
wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Yaofeng <[email protected]> wrote
    >> Informer <[email protected]> wrote

    >> That's why everything is so expensive in the UK. Isn't it? Gasoline prices
    >> 3 to 4 times those of the US, meals 1.5 to 2 times, groceries, etc...
    >> Because you produce to little...

    > The fuel prices are very high because of the tax (c.80% of the price is tax).

Correct.

    > Food prices are high because of the tax on fuel.

Wrong. The fuel price has little effect on the cost of food.

One of the most striking things about first world food
costs is that even if the food was free at the farm
gate, it would have little effect on the retail prices.

Most of the higher cost of food is the wages paid in the distribution
system. The profit margin in the supermarkets isnt all that high, tho
wastage with fresh food is quite a part of the retail cost.

Mxsmanic

Magda writes:

    > Now, you *have* to be kidding us.

No, I'm quite serious.

    > Are you telling us that slave work is legal over there??

There is no law that requires that employees be given paid vacation, and
many working people get none. This is routinely true for people who
work part-time, and widely true for people who work full-time as well.

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Rod Speed

"The Reids" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Following up to Yaofeng
    >>> I work for a very large UK company. I am on a 36 hour week, I work one 5
    >>> day week followed by one 4 day week (Monday to Friday) this equates to 26
    >>> scheduled days off a year. On top of that I get 6 weeks annual leave. Add
    >>> the 26 scheduled days off makes a total of 11 weeks 1 day plus the public
    >>> holidays.
    >>That's why everything is so expensive in the UK. Isn't it? Gasoline
    >>prices 3 to 4 times those of the US
    > That's tax policy, probably applies to all European countries,
    > discourages wastefully big cars. From our point of view Its more
    > a case of why does US have such environmentally unsound low gas
    > prices?
    > This isn't a UK issue anyway, more US/Europe.

    >> meals 1.5 to 2 times, groceries, etc... Because you produce to little...

    > Maybe, productivity probably isn't the only factor.
    > Spain is much cheaper than UK, with more holidays.
    > UK has lowest European holidays IIRC.

Quite a bit of the lower cost of food in the US is the low cost
of harvesting labor, particularly with manually harvested food.

    > Do remember one mans price cut is another mans pay cut or leave
    > cut. so if you worship capitalism and low prices/high production
    > you end up with the employee getting squeezed and sooner or later
    > that means you! What's so great about producing a lot, owning
    > loads of pointless "stuff" but having no time to yourself? US is
    > always going on about "land of the free", but 2 weeks leave isn't
    > the European or my idea of freedom. More "land of wage slavery"
    > from my point of view.

They do have a much lower unemployment rate than the worst of europe.

Mxsmanic

Magda writes:

    > Your "sick time" is the most cruel thing I've heard. Who is the perfectly healthy imbecile
    > who invented that ?

It is highly illogical. It seems to be based on the assumption that all
employees are liars, and will call in sick in order to get off work.

Obviously, since real illness cannot be planned, there is no rational
basis for true "sick time." If you are sick, you cannot come to work,
whether you are given "sick time" or not; and if you are not sick, you
should come to work, whether you have "sick time" unused or not.

    > If you get ill for, say, a month or two, you lose your job ?

Or you are not paid, at the very least.

    > The could as soon put robots everywhere and let the people die like flies...

Some companies are putting robots everywhere, or simply moving jobs to
the Third World.

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Mxsmanic

me writes:

    > one
    > would think with a new baby, that would be the time you'd want to have a few
    > days of personal time stashed.

Having a baby is a personal choice and voluntary; it's not an illness.

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Mxsmanic

js writes:

    > Rubbish. The Church of England is essentially Protestant, and the British
    > get an average of 4 to 5 weeks vacation time a year.

It's a Puritan work ethic. Not all Protestants are Puritans. The
Puritans were considered religious extremists by the British even two
centuries ago, which is one reason why the former chose to emigrate.

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Mxsmanic

D. Lloyd writes:

    > In order to do that, citizens must believe that
    > it is possible to grab a piece of the American dream no matter how small
    > that piece may be.

It's easier in the U.S. than almost anywhere else. However, it was a
lot easier in the 50s and 60s. Currently the pendulum has swung back to
where it was around 1900, with a very small number of very rich people,
a very large number of near-poverty-level people, and a nearly
nonexistent middle class.

    > People in Europe are very lucky.

Lucky in some ways, unlucky in others. Europeans still think they've
accomplished great things if they can buy a color TV after saving up for
ten years.

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Mxsmanic

The Reids writes:

    > the question here is why do so many "rightwing" Americans seem to
    > dispise trade unions etc and just seem to believe this work-work
    > culture is to their advantage?

In part it is because they've never been exposed to anything else.

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Mxsmanic

Richard writes:

    > Surely there are laws against forcing people to do this?

There are some laws, but they aren't necessarily enforced or observed.

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Ajc

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:31:24 GMT, "js" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> >It sucks, but I see in the news that business conditions are now forcing
    >> >Europe to cut back on the extensive social welfare system. Specifically,
    >> >unemployment benefits are being significantly reduced, employees must
    >work
    >> >longer hours and additional years before retiring. Frankly, western
    >Europe
    >> >has no choice. As long as they want free trade, they will have to compete
    >> >with the much lower wages in eastern Europe and the far east. The
    >wrenching
    >> >changes the US has gone through over the past decade, western Europe will
    >> >also have to experience. It's Business 101. That, or we re-erect trade
    >> >barriers against countries that don't follow similar labor practices. Is
    >it
    >> >fair for American and European workers to compete against workers in
    >other
    >> >countries who make 1/10 the salary and have no benefits or workplace
    >safety
    >> >regulations? Some economists say this is good, others say it isn't. I
    >don't
    >> >know who to believe. All I know is whenever I go into the store, I
    >struggle
    >> >to find anything that isn't manufactured in China, stuff that we used to
    >> >make. It makes me sad.
    >I don't remember this being the promise of the 21st century when free trade
    >was sold to us. We were supposed to have MORE free time, not slave away
    >more and more hours of the day so that corporate fat cats can sock away even
    >more to build up their mansions. If putting the barriers back up is what is
    >necessary to restore a livable lifestyle for most, then so be it.
    >Europeans, stop blindly following the American model... it is not the
    >utopian society it portrays itself as being.

Don't worry, most Europeans are well aware of what life in the US is
really like. The possibility of ending up with societies like that of
the US is often used as a powerful argument against letting things
deteriorate too much.
--==++AJC++==--