Js

    > > When an American friend told me people in the US only have two
    > > weeks of paid leave PER YEAR I could scarcely believe it.
    > It's called the protestant worth ethic.

Rubbish. The Church of England is essentially Protestant, and the British
get an average of 4 to 5 weeks vacation time a year. It has nothing to do
with religion, or a religious "work ethic". It's lack of balls on the part
of Americans to DEMAND better working conditions. For some odd reason, they
feel guilty for taking time off work to... get this... actually LIVE THEIR
LIVES. A real irony, huh?

Me

"Magda" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 06:23:13 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, Mxsmanic
<[email protected]>
    > arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :
    > ... Jonathan writes:
    > ...
    > ... > When an American friend told me people in the US only have two
weeks
    > ... > of paid leave PER YEAR I could scarcely believe it. He said yeah
but
    > ... > we get paid public holidays.
    > ...
    > ... Many people don't get any paid leave at all.
    > Now, you *have* to be kidding us. Are you telling us that slave work is
legal over there??

In the jobs I've had in the last ten years or so, time off has been on an
"accrual" basis, I think that is the trend now. We accrued vacation at
anywhere from 4 hours to 1 day for each month worked, and that amount would
increase after 5 years, and then again after 7 or 8. This included
vacation time, personal time, and sick time. Some of the companies would
allow you to "borrow" against vacation - in other words, if you wanted to
take a week off, but hadn't worked long enough to accrue those days, you
could take it in advance of earning it, but if you left the company during
that time, it was deducted from your final check. In the last two jobs I've
had, that borrowing was not allowed -- so vacation was not approved, and if
you were sick for longer than the days you had accrued, you simply didn't
get paid for that time.

From what I've seen lately, the norm on a new job is a week or two weeks the
first year, on an accrual basis, and usually some waiting period before you
could take any. In the dotcom days, it wasn't unusual to see three or four
weeks given to a new employee.

Js

    > >It sucks, but I see in the news that business conditions are now forcing
    > >Europe to cut back on the extensive social welfare system. Specifically,
    > >unemployment benefits are being significantly reduced, employees must
work
    > >longer hours and additional years before retiring. Frankly, western
Europe
    > >has no choice. As long as they want free trade, they will have to compete
    > >with the much lower wages in eastern Europe and the far east. The
wrenching
    > >changes the US has gone through over the past decade, western Europe will
    > >also have to experience. It's Business 101. That, or we re-erect trade
    > >barriers against countries that don't follow similar labor practices. Is
it
    > >fair for American and European workers to compete against workers in
other
    > >countries who make 1/10 the salary and have no benefits or workplace
safety
    > >regulations? Some economists say this is good, others say it isn't. I
don't
    > >know who to believe. All I know is whenever I go into the store, I
struggle
    > >to find anything that isn't manufactured in China, stuff that we used to
    > >make. It makes me sad.

I don't remember this being the promise of the 21st century when free trade
was sold to us. We were supposed to have MORE free time, not slave away
more and more hours of the day so that corporate fat cats can sock away even
more to build up their mansions. If putting the barriers back up is what is
necessary to restore a livable lifestyle for most, then so be it.

Europeans, stop blindly following the American model... it is not the
utopian society it portrays itself as being.

Me

"Icono Clast" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1098875234.qyLgbKIqyZSEJo43EScNUw@teranews...
    > Jonathan wrote:
    > > When an American friend told me people in the US only have two weeks
    > > of paid leave PER YEAR I could scarcely believe it.
    > I wouldn't. The last two week vacation I earned was in 1960 that I
    > took the last two weeks of January, 1961.
    > In the '60s I had three week vacations but often took six.
    > In the '70s and '80s I had four week vacations that turned into nine
    > weeks by taking the vacation earned last year starting ThanksGiving
    > Wednesday and the vacation earned this year starting January 2.
    > ThanksGiving Thursday and Friday = 2 days; Christmas Eve = ½ day and
    > Christmas = 1 day. New Year's Day = 1 day a total of 4½ days for a
    > nine-week vacation that was actually eight weeks plus 4½ days.
    > In the '90s I had five week vacations and, were I still working,
    > would still have those five week vacations.
    > Holidays:
    > New Year's Day
    > Presidents' Day
    > Memorial Day
    > Independence Day
    > Labor Day
    > ThanksGiving Day
    > ThanksGiving Friday
    > Christmas Eve (½ day)
    > Christmas Day
    > Anniversary date
    > Birth date
    > That's 10½ holidays.

Wow, I'd like to work there! The only holidays at the jobs I've worked
have been New Years Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day,
Thanksgiving Day (not Friday), and Christmas (Day, not Eve). We always
thought it was silly to have to work Christmas Eve day because it was one of
the more unproductive days to work -- nothing much would get done, and so
may of the people you would need to work with would be taking a vacation day
that day. So 9 times out of 10, there wasn't much that could be done, and
we'd just kind of put in the time til the day was over -- but we got paid.


    > The last 40-hour work-week I had was in 1957 when I started a job
    > with a 37½-hour work week. Most of my work life was 35-hour weeks.
    > One decade was 32 hours and I didn't take a lunch break so my actual
    > door-to-door workday was seven hours.
    > I have heard that there are still people in the USA who work 40-hour
    > weeks for 2-week vacations but I don't know any. Does anyone?

Again, my jobs have all been salaried, rather than hourly, and have expected
between 45 and 50 hours a week with no overtime. At my last company, I
remember when one of the honchos held a meeting for all the employees, after
a big layoff. There was a lot of employee bitching because the people that
were left ended up working more hours to make up for the people that were
let go. We were told if we wanted to just work 40 hours a week, to go find
another job. I'd rather forego some salary to have some extra non-work,
life time, but you don't dare tell an employer that.

Richard Cline

In article <[email protected]>,
"Informer" <[email protected]> wrote:

It is interesting that many of the best and brightest people immigrate
to the US for their career betterment.

Dick

    >
    > In the UK the absolote minimum the law allows is 4 weeks plus public
    > holidays. I would not work for a company that offered less than 5 weeks.
    >

Magda

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:26:44 -0500, in rec.travel.europe, "me" <nospamhere> arranged some
electrons, so they looked like this :


... In the jobs I've had in the last ten years or so, time off has been on an
... "accrual" basis, I think that is the trend now. We accrued vacation at
... anywhere from 4 hours to 1 day for each month worked, and that amount would
... increase after 5 years, and then again after 7 or 8. This included
... vacation time, personal time, and sick time. Some of the companies would
... allow you to "borrow" against vacation - in other words, if you wanted to
... take a week off, but hadn't worked long enough to accrue those days, you
... could take it in advance of earning it, but if you left the company during
... that time, it was deducted from your final check. In the last two jobs I've
... had, that borrowing was not allowed -- so vacation was not approved, and if
... you were sick for longer than the days you had accrued, you simply didn't
... get paid for that time.
...
... From what I've seen lately, the norm on a new job is a week or two weeks the
... first year, on an accrual basis, and usually some waiting period before you
... could take any. In the dotcom days, it wasn't unusual to see three or four
... weeks given to a new employee.

Your "sick time" is the most cruel thing I've heard. Who is the perfectly healthy imbecile
who invented that ? If you get ill for, say, a month or two, you lose your job ?
The could as soon put robots everywhere and let the people die like flies...

Tock

"Jonathan" <[email protected]> wrote
    > If this is true about the US, how can the average American live under
    > such a system and not lose their mind???


Many of us have lost our minds. That should be obvious just from watching
our elections.
-Tock

The Reids

Following up to Richard Cline

    >It is interesting that many of the best and brightest people immigrate
    >to the US for their career betterment.

The US is probably a good place to be for the best and brightest,
just has some crappy aspects for the other 95%.
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Thames path-London-photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Me

"Magda" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:26:44 -0500, in rec.travel.europe, "me"
<nospamhere> arranged some
    > electrons, so they looked like this :
    > ... In the jobs I've had in the last ten years or so, time off has been
on an
    > ... "accrual" basis, I think that is the trend now. We accrued vacation
at
    > ... anywhere from 4 hours to 1 day for each month worked, and that amount
would
    > ... increase after 5 years, and then again after 7 or 8. This included
    > ... vacation time, personal time, and sick time. Some of the companies
would
    > ... allow you to "borrow" against vacation - in other words, if you
wanted to
    > ... take a week off, but hadn't worked long enough to accrue those days,
you
    > ... could take it in advance of earning it, but if you left the company
during
    > ... that time, it was deducted from your final check. In the last two
jobs I've
    > ... had, that borrowing was not allowed -- so vacation was not approved,
and if
    > ... you were sick for longer than the days you had accrued, you simply
didn't
    > ... get paid for that time.
    > ...
    > ... From what I've seen lately, the norm on a new job is a week or two
weeks the
    > ... first year, on an accrual basis, and usually some waiting period
before you
    > ... could take any. In the dotcom days, it wasn't unusual to see three
or four
    > ... weeks given to a new employee.
    > Your "sick time" is the most cruel thing I've heard. Who is the perfectly
healthy imbecile
    > who invented that ? If you get ill for, say, a month or two, you lose your
job ?
    > The could as soon put robots everywhere and let the people die like
flies...
Not really, because after a certain amount of time, it turns into short-term
(or long-term) disability instead, and you get a certain percentage of your
pay, but I don't know how it affects things like status. I myself have
never been out for more than two days at a time. But it does mean that a
lot of people go to work sick, and end up making others sick. It also means
you try and find a doctor / dentist with evening and weekend hours.

One of the worst policies I've seen is for people that take maternity leave
(and this was the policy for the last two companies I worked for, I don't
know how prevalent it is). They would get x amount of time (unpaid) for
family leave. But before that time kicks in, the time off FIRST comes out
of their accrued vacation and personal time off days. So if they have a
week of vacation accrued before they go on leave, the first week of leave is
counted as their vacation. So a person coming off of leave under that
policy comes back to work with zero days accrued for personal time off, one
would think with a new baby, that would be the time you'd want to have a few
days of personal time stashed.

Again, just my experience from the places I've worked. YMMV

nitram

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:28:58 +0100, The Reids
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Following up to Richard Cline
    >>It is interesting that many of the best and brightest people immigrate
    >>to the US for their career betterment.
    >The US is probably a good place to be for the best and brightest,
    >just has some crappy aspects for the other 95%.

Whilst many go to the USA to study and get experience, many return to
Europe once they have experience. AFAIR almost all Airbus Industrie's
French avionics software experts had got their experience in the USA.
--
Martin

Pretty Woman

S Viemeister wrote:
    > Pretty Woman wrote:
    >
    >>I get 5 plus 4 personal choice days :-)
    >
    > Is that five days or five weeks?
    >

5 weeks and 4 personal choice days

Ronald Hands

js wrote:

    >
    > Europeans, stop blindly following the American model... it is not the
    > utopian society it portrays itself as being.
    >
    >
One who finds it less than utopian is author Jeremy Rifkin, whose new
book is titled The European Dream: How Europe's vision of the future is
quietly eclipsing the American dream.
Rifkin believes that the European Dream, with its emphasis on living
rather than just getting, is one with increasing appeal, and that the
American Dream, characterized by materialism, greed and individualism,
is becoming a rejected model.
As the jacket blurb summarizes: "We Americans live (and die) by the
work ethic and the dictates of efficiency. Europeans place more of a
premium on leisure and even idleness."
And:
"Americans are increasingly overworked, underpaid, squeezed for time,
and unsure about their prospects for a better life. One-third of all
Americans say they no longer even *believe* in the American dream."
Meanwhile, the European Union's $10.5 trillion GDP now eclipses that
of the United States, making it the largest economy in the world.

-- Ron

Val189

Jonathan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<483un0lc2o3rmp3kju8enknp9h845l1v50@news>...
    > When an American friend told me people in the US only have two weeks
    > of paid leave PER YEAR I could scarcely believe it.

Your friend only gave you part of the picture. In many companies, paid
vacation increases with time served. Some jobs initially allow 3
weeks paid vacation. Before I retired, I got 6 and a half weeks pd.
vac., plus insurance for medical, vision, dental, for which I paid no
premium....(gee, I wonder why I quit.....) and could also take unpaid
leave at certain times of the year.

Go Fig

In article <[email protected]>, Ronald Hands
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > js wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > Europeans, stop blindly following the American model... it is not the
    > > utopian society it portrays itself as being.
    > >
    > >
    > One who finds it less than utopian is author Jeremy Rifkin, whose new
    > book is titled The European Dream: How Europe's vision of the future is
    > quietly eclipsing the American dream.
    > Rifkin believes that the European Dream, with its emphasis on living
    > rather than just getting, is one with increasing appeal, and that the
    > American Dream, characterized by materialism, greed and individualism,
    > is becoming a rejected model.
    > As the jacket blurb summarizes: "We Americans live (and die) by the
    > work ethic and the dictates of efficiency. Europeans place more of a
    > premium on leisure and even idleness."
    > And:
    > "Americans are increasingly overworked, underpaid, squeezed for time,
    > and unsure about their prospects for a better life. One-third of all
    > Americans say they no longer even *believe* in the American dream."
    > Meanwhile, the European Union's $10.5 trillion GDP now eclipses that
    > of the United States, making it the largest economy in the world.

I see the U.S. GDP for 2003 at 10.9 trillion and will grow at 4.3% in
2004 (IMF) and the combined europe at 10.5, but at 2.2% growth.

jay
Wed Oct 27, 2004
mailto:[email protected]


    >
    > -- Ron

Juliana L Holm

In rec.travel.europe val189 <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Jonathan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<483un0lc2o3rmp3kju8enknp9h845l1v50@news>...
    >> When an American friend told me people in the US only have two weeks
    >> of paid leave PER YEAR I could scarcely believe it.

    > Your friend only gave you part of the picture. In many companies, paid
    > vacation increases with time served. Some jobs initially allow 3
    > weeks paid vacation. Before I retired, I got 6 and a half weeks pd.
    > vac., plus insurance for medical, vision, dental, for which I paid no
    > premium....(gee, I wonder why I quit.....) and could also take unpaid
    > leave at certain times of the year.

You were the exception, not the rule.

The rule for professional, white collar workers is 2 weeks per year to start,
with a third week after 5 to 10 years of service, and a fourth week in some
cases after 10 to 15 years.

Many places do allow you to take time without pay.

--
Julie
**********
Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at
http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm