Eastern Ukraine Threatens to Secede if Yushchenko Wins
Nov 29th 2004, 3:45 pm
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Ukraine Threatens to Secede if Yushchenko Wins
Just when we thought it was safe, "Xen(ophob)ia" is back!
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] m...
> And proclaiming oneself president before a handful of one's supporters
> in the Rada is not a criminal act? And blocking the work of the
> cabinet of ministers and the president's administration is not a
> criminal act?
You wanna know about criminal acts? Read what Russians did in Lithuania
1940-1. For that matter, read any page of "Soviet" history.
> There is an international principle that every minority has the right
> to choose their form of political organisation. Asking for autonomy
> may be a criminal act according to perverted national law but it will
> always be justified by international law which normally has precedence
> over the national regulation.
Oh yes. I bet you said that in 1990 when Lithuania declared
independence from Moskau?
> By the way, the Russian media reports that not only Crimea but 12
> other regions, including Trans-Carpathia, called for independence of
> their respective regions. Splitting the country will leave Yuschenko
> the president of Galicia. Unlike united Ukraine, Galicia will be able
> to join EU and NATO as soon as possible: it has no viable industry and
> no Russian forces located on its territory. On the other hand, united
> Ukraine will not be able to join NATO until 2050 when the treaty about
> Russian Black Sea Fleet being quartered in Sevastopol will expire.
2050? You nuts? Your barbaric hordes won't even be civilised enough by
2150.
> You may follow a link to the Guardian home page to learn how M-me
> Timoshenko (her actual name is Telegina, she has not a drop of
> Ukrainian blood) earned her billions by stealing Russian gas and
> selling it to Europe.
Couldn't give a stuff. I'd rather you read how Russians exploited
Lithuania for 50 years and other republics for more than 70.
GK
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] m...
> And proclaiming oneself president before a handful of one's supporters
> in the Rada is not a criminal act? And blocking the work of the
> cabinet of ministers and the president's administration is not a
> criminal act?
You wanna know about criminal acts? Read what Russians did in Lithuania
1940-1. For that matter, read any page of "Soviet" history.
> There is an international principle that every minority has the right
> to choose their form of political organisation. Asking for autonomy
> may be a criminal act according to perverted national law but it will
> always be justified by international law which normally has precedence
> over the national regulation.
Oh yes. I bet you said that in 1990 when Lithuania declared
independence from Moskau?
> By the way, the Russian media reports that not only Crimea but 12
> other regions, including Trans-Carpathia, called for independence of
> their respective regions. Splitting the country will leave Yuschenko
> the president of Galicia. Unlike united Ukraine, Galicia will be able
> to join EU and NATO as soon as possible: it has no viable industry and
> no Russian forces located on its territory. On the other hand, united
> Ukraine will not be able to join NATO until 2050 when the treaty about
> Russian Black Sea Fleet being quartered in Sevastopol will expire.
2050? You nuts? Your barbaric hordes won't even be civilised enough by
2150.
> You may follow a link to the Guardian home page to learn how M-me
> Timoshenko (her actual name is Telegina, she has not a drop of
> Ukrainian blood) earned her billions by stealing Russian gas and
> selling it to Europe.
Couldn't give a stuff. I'd rather you read how Russians exploited
Lithuania for 50 years and other republics for more than 70.
GK
Nov 30th 2004, 1:45 am
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Ukraine Threatens to Secede if Yushchenko Wins
[email protected] (Xenia) wrote in message news:<[email protected] om>...
> [email protected] (Luda Lozowy) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > The Crimean parliament is controlled by hardcore pro-Russia, pro-USSR
> > types who have been unable to resolved the internal tensions and
> > conflicts within Crimea. They are at odds with the Tartar people who
> > since 1991 have finally been allowed to return to their "home" after
> > having been forcible deported during the time of the Soviet regime.
> > The pro-Russian population has been feeling increasingly edgy about
> > the "new" immigrants which boil down to real fear about the loss of
> > political power in the area. Also please note that secession is a
> > CRIMINAL ACT under the Ukrainian constitution. Members of Crimea's
>
> And proclaiming oneself president before a handful of one's supporters
> in the Rada is not a criminal act? And blocking the work of the
> cabinet of ministers and the president's administration is not a
> criminal act?
All due to obviously fraudulant elections.
> There is an international principle that every minority has the right
> to choose their form of political organisation. Asking for autonomy
> may be a criminal act according to perverted national law but it will
> always be justified by international law which normally has precedence
> over the national regulation.
Do you apply the same principles to Chechnya?
If eastern Ukraine tries to seccede do you think the Ukrainian army
has the right to do to it what the Russian army did to Chechnya?
Or are you into double standards?
> By the way, the Russian media reports that not only Crimea but 12
> other regions, including Trans-Carpathia, called for independence of
> their respective regions. Splitting the country will leave Yuschenko
> the president of Galicia.
And the right bank, including Kyiv. As well as Chernihiv, Sumy,
Poltava oblasts. The electoral map of Ukraine for you:
http://www.infoukes.com/ukrainian_el...lection-ua.jpg
> Unlike united Ukraine, Galicia will be able
> to join EU and NATO as soon as possible: it has no viable industry
Not really:
http://www.ukrainebiz.com/Articles/LvivFacts.htm
Lviv was also a major electronic center in the USSR and thus has a
large pool of electrical engineers etc.
But of course a seperate Ukraine would include not only Galicia but
Volyn, Podil (Khmelnitsky/Vynnytsia) and central Ukraine (Kiev,
Poltava, Cherkassy, Chernihiv)
> and
> no Russian forces located on its territory. On the other hand, united
> Ukraine will not be able to join NATO until 2050 when the treaty about
> Russian Black Sea Fleet being quartered in Sevastopol will expire.
Unless the Russian forces are thrown out.
> > parliament have tried to secede before. The situation in Crimea
> > (majority are ethnic Russians) had even been tried to justify an
> > attempt to prevent Ukraine from having independence back in 1991.
> >
> > Yuschenko and his political party are pushing for FREE AND HONEST
> > ELECTIONS! - If re-elections are actually held it is predicted that
> > Yuschenko would receive 75% to Yanukovych 25%. Any extreme percentage
> > would actually destroy the LEGITIMACY of the winner both inside
> > Ukraine and abroad.
> >
> > The separatist are also afraid that Yuschenko would win in a free and
> > honest election (which is why they and Kuchma's govt did not allow
> > that to happen - BY THE WAY BOTH rounds of elections did not meet
> > foreign observer's standards.)
> > for the simple reason that he has promised to end criminal corruption.
> > PLEASE VISIT HTTP://WWW.YUSCHENKO.COM.UA/ENG/pres..._Ukraine_bloc/
> > for information both (personal and political) about Yuschenko as well
> > as a breakdown of the political parties which support him.
> >
> > Millions of dollars has been stolen from the Ukrainian people by
> > Kuchma, corrupt government officials and business leaders. These
>
> They were stolen primarily by his corrupt prime-ministers Lazarenko
> and Yuschenko. I wonder how it happens that Lazarenko has been
> imprisoned for several years but the Gas Lady who signed all the
> documents with him is still free and shouting on the streets of Kiev.
> You may follow a link to the Guardian home page to learn how M-me
> Timoshenko (her actual name is Telegina, she has not a drop of
> Ukrainian blood) earned her billions by stealing Russian gas and
> selling it to Europe.
Yushchenko ended the gas theft.
BM
> > people KNOW that in a free and honest election Yuschenko would win,
> > they would be facing criminal prosecutions, and so they are willing to
> > split the country in even though this is NOT THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY
> > OF THE UKRAINIAN people both from the West and East.
> [email protected] (Luda Lozowy) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > The Crimean parliament is controlled by hardcore pro-Russia, pro-USSR
> > types who have been unable to resolved the internal tensions and
> > conflicts within Crimea. They are at odds with the Tartar people who
> > since 1991 have finally been allowed to return to their "home" after
> > having been forcible deported during the time of the Soviet regime.
> > The pro-Russian population has been feeling increasingly edgy about
> > the "new" immigrants which boil down to real fear about the loss of
> > political power in the area. Also please note that secession is a
> > CRIMINAL ACT under the Ukrainian constitution. Members of Crimea's
>
> And proclaiming oneself president before a handful of one's supporters
> in the Rada is not a criminal act? And blocking the work of the
> cabinet of ministers and the president's administration is not a
> criminal act?
All due to obviously fraudulant elections.
> There is an international principle that every minority has the right
> to choose their form of political organisation. Asking for autonomy
> may be a criminal act according to perverted national law but it will
> always be justified by international law which normally has precedence
> over the national regulation.
Do you apply the same principles to Chechnya?
If eastern Ukraine tries to seccede do you think the Ukrainian army
has the right to do to it what the Russian army did to Chechnya?
Or are you into double standards?
> By the way, the Russian media reports that not only Crimea but 12
> other regions, including Trans-Carpathia, called for independence of
> their respective regions. Splitting the country will leave Yuschenko
> the president of Galicia.
And the right bank, including Kyiv. As well as Chernihiv, Sumy,
Poltava oblasts. The electoral map of Ukraine for you:
http://www.infoukes.com/ukrainian_el...lection-ua.jpg
> Unlike united Ukraine, Galicia will be able
> to join EU and NATO as soon as possible: it has no viable industry
Not really:
http://www.ukrainebiz.com/Articles/LvivFacts.htm
Lviv was also a major electronic center in the USSR and thus has a
large pool of electrical engineers etc.
But of course a seperate Ukraine would include not only Galicia but
Volyn, Podil (Khmelnitsky/Vynnytsia) and central Ukraine (Kiev,
Poltava, Cherkassy, Chernihiv)
> and
> no Russian forces located on its territory. On the other hand, united
> Ukraine will not be able to join NATO until 2050 when the treaty about
> Russian Black Sea Fleet being quartered in Sevastopol will expire.
Unless the Russian forces are thrown out.
> > parliament have tried to secede before. The situation in Crimea
> > (majority are ethnic Russians) had even been tried to justify an
> > attempt to prevent Ukraine from having independence back in 1991.
> >
> > Yuschenko and his political party are pushing for FREE AND HONEST
> > ELECTIONS! - If re-elections are actually held it is predicted that
> > Yuschenko would receive 75% to Yanukovych 25%. Any extreme percentage
> > would actually destroy the LEGITIMACY of the winner both inside
> > Ukraine and abroad.
> >
> > The separatist are also afraid that Yuschenko would win in a free and
> > honest election (which is why they and Kuchma's govt did not allow
> > that to happen - BY THE WAY BOTH rounds of elections did not meet
> > foreign observer's standards.)
> > for the simple reason that he has promised to end criminal corruption.
> > PLEASE VISIT HTTP://WWW.YUSCHENKO.COM.UA/ENG/pres..._Ukraine_bloc/
> > for information both (personal and political) about Yuschenko as well
> > as a breakdown of the political parties which support him.
> >
> > Millions of dollars has been stolen from the Ukrainian people by
> > Kuchma, corrupt government officials and business leaders. These
>
> They were stolen primarily by his corrupt prime-ministers Lazarenko
> and Yuschenko. I wonder how it happens that Lazarenko has been
> imprisoned for several years but the Gas Lady who signed all the
> documents with him is still free and shouting on the streets of Kiev.
> You may follow a link to the Guardian home page to learn how M-me
> Timoshenko (her actual name is Telegina, she has not a drop of
> Ukrainian blood) earned her billions by stealing Russian gas and
> selling it to Europe.
Yushchenko ended the gas theft.
BM
> > people KNOW that in a free and honest election Yuschenko would win,
> > they would be facing criminal prosecutions, and so they are willing to
> > split the country in even though this is NOT THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY
> > OF THE UKRAINIAN people both from the West and East.
Nov 30th 2004, 2:07 am
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Eastern Ukraine Threatens to Secede if Yushchenko Wins
"Xenia" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet > And proclaiming oneself
president before a handful of one's supporters
> There is an international principle that every minority has the right
> to choose their form of political organisation.
-------------------------------------
There's no such international principle.
We have reason to expect every minority to have equal rights but that's not
the same as they've the right to choose political organisation.
Asking for autonomy
> may be a criminal act according to perverted national law but it will
> always be justified by international law which normally has precedence
> over the national regulation.
-----------------------------------
International law ?? What's that ? International law doesn't exist
,simply.
There's only national law systems.
Some international conventions do exist, as human rights, prisoners right
in a war due to the Geneva convention and so. Bear in mind such
conventions must be signed by the independent countries and included in the
countries national law systems, otherwise they're not worth more than the
paper used.
president before a handful of one's supporters
> There is an international principle that every minority has the right
> to choose their form of political organisation.
-------------------------------------
There's no such international principle.
We have reason to expect every minority to have equal rights but that's not
the same as they've the right to choose political organisation.
Asking for autonomy
> may be a criminal act according to perverted national law but it will
> always be justified by international law which normally has precedence
> over the national regulation.
-----------------------------------
International law ?? What's that ? International law doesn't exist
,simply.
There's only national law systems.
Some international conventions do exist, as human rights, prisoners right
in a war due to the Geneva convention and so. Bear in mind such
conventions must be signed by the independent countries and included in the
countries national law systems, otherwise they're not worth more than the
paper used.
