Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

We really need some help. We are jumbled up in a ridiculous Portuguese red-tape situation and if we can’t resolve it we are going to end up having to leave Portugal—either due to the fact we can’t sort it out or because we simply cannot deal with any more stress….(and melodramatic as that may sound, I am being serious….)

Basically, when we got our residency, Tavira, for some reason which no one has yet been able to fathom, only gave us one year (we are both British EU citizens).

Our one year residency expires on 11th June. Tavira Camara are refusing to renew it unless we have my wife’s work contract translated into Portuguese and produce a “declaracao da segranca social com os descontos efectuados” from the securanca social, which I think basically confirms that we don’t owe any social security.

The social security is where it gets tricky. My wife is employed by a UK company and works over a remote connection on a UK server. She is payrolled in the UK but has an NT tax code—her UK company deducts National Insurance but pays her salary gross of tax, and all of our income has been declared properly via a Portuguese tax return.

The EU law puts my wife in a grey area, but does seem to suggest that she should pay SS here instead of NI, but as her company is UK based, no mechanism exists here for her to pay it—she isn’t self employed, nor is she employed by a Portuguese company.

My situation is slightly more straightforward as I am self employed – last year I was an employee of my own UK Ltd company, and therefore in exactly in the same position as my wife, but I am now in the process of registering for green receipts, which will mean I then pay Portuguese social security. There is an extra problem there now though, as the seguranca social want a copy of MY residency before completing my registration!

Our accountant says the SS issue should be fine, due to an EU reciprocal arrangement, but I am terrified that if we go to the seguranca social, they are going to want Portuguese SS for the whole of the past year, which we cannot give them as the UK have already had it!

The only thing that is really causing a problem is the requirements the camara are giving us to renew the residency. The EU website, the British consulate and SEF’s OWN website, say that all we should need to provide for a 5 year residency is a declaration that we can support ourselves and our passports. Indeed, our relatives who are in Olhao municipal area did just this, and it was a 5 minute job. Our accountant tells us “yes, they are difficult in Tavira.”
We have a lawyer working on it, but to no avail, and are already on our third accountant after the first two just advised us to “stay under the radar.” Something perhaps we should have listened to.

All we have tried to do since we got here is do everything by the book, as our 11,000€ tax bill proves. We have followed all the advice we have been given and we still seem to be screwed.

The EU website states that not having a valid residency is not a justifiable reason to kick us out of the country, but we are not willing to stay here past the expiry date.

All of this goes very much against EU freedom of movement law but we don’t know where to turn – would the British consulate help?

Any advice, help, support would be very much appreciated, but please refrain from comments like “you shouldn’t need THAT to get residency – WE KNOW!!!”
Help :(

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

Try the SEF rather than the Camara?

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

Done, sadly - grinned and sent us back to the camara :-(

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

Have you been in contact with Afpop yet ? www.afpop.com

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

Not regarding this, but as far as I'm aware they don't get directly involved in anything like this - more likely they will refer us to a documents agency or something I would have thought.

See you are in Ayamonte - we may be joining you there soon if this doesn't get sorted out! - let Spain have our tax instead :-(

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

Being 100% legit here is horror, truly. We tried, and have regretted every piece (residence, matriculation, boats, trailers, motorbikes...health card).

If you can, why not de-register as residents - really what value does it bring you - costs EUR 7 - so drop it, let it elapse ?

You both work 'offshore', and therefore what footprint do you leave in PT for them to pursue ?

OR, I would have thought, a simple CYP company structure as a 3rd party offshore admin centre would have solved the mess. You can be resident in PT (self-financed early retirees), pay taxes on any local remittances, taxes on bank savings, VAT, etc....and simply ringfence and keep offshore all stuff, that PT simply cannot manage.

I am guessing - Spain will be similar, but different mess.

Remote offshore working does not fit into local country or EU regs - not only in PT (particularly useless bunch), but elsewhere too. You are better to riingfence Work, Living, Admin as 3 centres - pay taxes wherever is easiest for you....and sleep calmly, knowing that taxes are paid the best you can.

Happy to meet for coffee, and IMHO best advice. I sought various advices from big 4 firms....any local EUR 25 / hour lady (recommended), and in summary, they all said - keep your business activities far from PT.

BA

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

Hi BA

Thank you for your comments. Sadly we have progressed a bit too far down the legit route now. Our tax return for this year is in, so no going back now, and I am (half!) registered for green receipts.

We don't have a home anywhere else, so legally speaking we have to be taxed here on our worldwide income, based on the 183 day thing (we are in the UK less than 30 days per year)

We too have seen the "big" expat accountants, probably the same people, but were surprised they basically said "stay under the radar." We were so glad to meet the current one (Lagoa based, you can probably work out who) as she is an advocate of doing things by the book. Sadly though, she's not been much help with the social security issue, her advice amounting to "shout and ask for the complaints book," which, as Brits, I doubt is going to get us very far.

Really quite sad about all this, as we have done everything we can to integrate, learn Portuguese and pay our way. We feel rather unwelcome here right now.

Thanks again for your advice. Do you think your local lady would be any help WRT the residency or ss issues?

B

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

For untangling such situations, I have used a local lawyer in Tavira. Calm, focused, and have been v happy with results. I am pleased to have her as part of 'team', so to speak, that supports living here. She is well connected to Camara, and has sorted myriad of issues for us.

Will PM you contact details, if you request.

Staying under radar - yes, best advice all parties provide, and those that suggest otherwise.....rarely can actually help you be legit.

PT is horrible cultural mix, worse than Eastern Europe/Ukraine, etc - because it has the pseudo post-communist admin and lack of responsibility, then coupled with soft, friendly, lazy, carefree, socialist weak work ethics. Add two together, and no wonder the place is a mess.

Your call, maybe worth a meeting with the lawyer, because efforts of moving to Spain, and re-starting.....mess may be different there, better or worse.

BA

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

Absolutely. In a country like Portugal where bureaucracy doesn't know what common sense is, staying under the radar is the way to go.

That's what I'd do now if I were you. I think you are taking it all too hard. You just made a simple newbie mistake. There's no need to get stressed out over it.

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

Hi BA,

Yes, please do send me details (and your name if that's OK so I can mention you referred us). What does she charge?

We already have a lawyer dealing with it but he has been useless so far.

Sadly, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you say about Portugal at the moment, the difficulties we are having are doing irreparable damage to our attitude towards the country when we have always tried to be respectful and culturally aware. Our "pros" list does seem to be getting steadily smaller.

B

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

Fully agree with PubChampion. Simply quietly back-out of PT admin.....let things expire, calm the legit path down, and focus on your business activities and enjoying PT. If you need to feel secure, then park your admin/legal/tax stuff offshore in CYP, or similar place. BA

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

Ah yes, isn't hindsight a wonderful thing. Sadly we are now very much ON the radar - we can't undo what's already been done, so we have to work through from where we have ended up :-(

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

PM sent 2 U. Off to bed, good night, BA

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

Afpop might be able to offer some advice I thought. At least plough through their website. At the benefits section they mention "Information seminars on Tax and other subjects"

Re: Red tape nightmare - Please help!
 

This road leads nowhere good.

You are saying that you are trying to integrate but you are not. What you are doing is try to force your way thru the Portuguese system the Brit way. Doing everything by the book is alien to them are you are paying the price for being so stubbornly British and refusing to accept their way of life.

As Big Ant said, moving to Spain will bring similar problems if you keep the same attitude.

Most people who go back to the UK do that because they are unwilling or unable to change.