RichardHenshall

That's what I was thinking, you are born with one or more nationalities and those can never be lost. You can also be born with citizenship(s) but you can acquire (and lose?) others in the future.

However this EU law on succession seems to set the default based upon residency, which is a different thing again. So, does a Brit who acquires another citizenship before finally settling in Portugal have one or two choices other than Portuguese succession law?

carvoeiro

Sadly its as clear as mud
The EU law - simply stated that if more than one nationality applied to you you could chose which you wanted to apply to your assets within the EU when you died -
You can choose the laws of a nationality that is outside of the EU if it is your right and those laws can be applied to your EU assets
The reverse however is not true - you cannot tell a country that has not signed up to this agreement that you want other rules to apply - unless coincidentally its part of their legal framework - this includes the UK
So UK probate laws can be applied to your EU assets - but your EU choice does not apply to your UK assets unless it coincides
The court or whichever entity deals with probate in the country in which you resided then gives you the document that can then be used to apply probate throughout the EU which should prevent any issues within the EU
In reality it only allows your choice of who inherits - normal taxes etc specific to the country the asset is in still apply
However - local succession law - ie across lots of Europe - Napoleon division of assets between family members in theory still apply if the majority of the assets are in a country in which that is the law - or at the very least are strong reasons for your disinherited relatives to appeal against the probate ruling
Tax is even more complicated the fundamental rule is that its based on where you are domiciled - hugely complicated to determine - easy to live abroad for years but to find you are still officially domicilied in your country of birth -
Even if you are liable for tax in the country in which you live - possbly for many many years - you might find out that you are also liable to tax in your original country if they still believe you are domiciled there
An eg of this might be you have lived in Portugal for decades - leave your assets - all in Portugal to your children - tax free here in principal - but uk inheritance laws apply because the UK tax office could argue you are still domiciled there if you haven't met the rules to officially change it
it becomes even more complicated if you own assets of any kind in more than one country
basically a mess only slightly improved by the new rules
please note this is my understanding of this topic based on my own research - if this is vital to you please research yourself or take professional advice

carvoeiro

this is the actual law - happy reading
my interpretation was not the one commonly seen in the UK press that you could bypass country level succession law - i believe it still applies to assets held in any country where that is the law - but not necessarily to external assets

To date the whole business is awaiting a judgement from the Court of Justice of the European Union to get certainty

L_2012201EN.01010701.xml

RichardHenshall

Given that the UK is very relaxed about to whom you choose to leave your estate, why would you want to have another country's (possibly more restrictive) laws apply? If you want to apply the Napoleonic Code of succession to your UK assets, you can.

Tax is bound to be more complicated when there are multiple countries claiming a right to tax.

carvoeiro

not sure why you snatched a very short item out of a very long piece
however - you can't 'apply the Napoleonic Code of succession to your UK assets' because the uk opted out and uk law is the only one that applies to uk assets - tax law is potentially different

ps the UK law is only different if you exercise your right to make a will otherwise if you die intestate you will find its very similar to Napoleonic law

RichardHenshall

Because I wanted to address only part of your very long piece.

My short answer is that I believe you can.

The longer answer is that, because the UK opted out of the law to which you refer, only UK laws will apply. However, I believe those UK laws (about who gets what) are flexible enough that if you wish to follow the Portuguese laws about who gets what, you can, because you have that freedom.

carvoeiro

you can't actually follow the Napoleonic code - to hard code a potentially moving set of goalposts into a UK will would not be allowed - or if it was has a strong potential to cause the will to be invalidated
but by carefull wording of your will you could arrive at the same end result
lets call it a draw

RichardHenshall

SgtTroy

...except that some EU countries do not have inheritance tax. It all depends in a way of the size of the estate.
For smaller estates it wouldn't make a difference, but it is a bit different for larger estates

RichardHenshall

If the estate is liable to inheritance (or equivalent) tax it's surely because of where you live or are considered domiciled (and possibly the country in which the assets are located) rather than to whom you give your estate (spousal exemptions etc aside).

If you live in Portugal and are unmarried, parentless and childless but have siblings, and you leave your estate to your nieces and nephews (as the UK would allow) does your estate pay different tax than if your siblings had inherited (as Portuguese law would require)?

macliam

If Ms May gets her way, UK residents will gamble all but £100k of their estate on not requiring care for dementia. However, the bill would not be collected until after death.

So, here's a question - how would that work for foreign assets?
Could the UK government take a lien on a property in Portugal for such "debts"?
Would Portugal accept such a right over their own inheritance laws?

If not, it seems there's a gaping black hole in the proposal - if faced with such a situation, the family rent a property for the person involved (or put them up in their own property), accept the care provided and leave the government with a bill that can't be collected.....

BritInParis

There sometimes is a legal distinction (e.g. all British citizens are British nationals but not all British nationals are British citizens) but for the purposes of this discussion there is no difference. You're either a citizen/national of a country and entitled to its passport, etc.. or you're not. Nationality/citizenship can be gained or lost depending on the nationality/citizenship law of the country in question.

carvoeiro

Turns out may didn't mean it - the 5 minute item on the news and the huge coverage in the press - apparantly were 'missunderstandings' - the actual words she spoke were in fact 'not correct' - had to be taken in context with something said many decades ago - so even though the bbc said its not happening - in fact the Tories haven't confirmed that - they said in very tiny letters at the bottom of their own press release - Boris said - we might re-think it
lies- dam lies and even more damn lies - how can any decent human being even consider voting for them - beyond me - and i've voted Tory in the past

SgtTroy

Perhaps by incorporating those foreign assets so that they will then belong to a company, not to an individual.
Or by donating them to children, grandchildren, etc...

I'm sure the accountants and the lawyers already have the answers to that

carvoeiro

i'm sure there isn't a Tory who pays more than the minimum of death duties
Why else do you really think they want to retain that little rock off the coast of Spain full of hidden companies dubious banks codes of secrecy and a million mail boxes