calman014

Fully charged is a Youtube Channel to which you can subscribe. Yes that video is one of the many..

AndyPT

The only reason that comes to my mind is corruption. Though I don't believe I can change that one (at least being a foreigner), I'm still free to choose what do I pay for: the potentially corrupted government and utilities or the green future for my children.

And since they've cut all the usual economically viable ways to go solar, the only way I can see is the solar panels + battery. Yes, it will take much longer to pay itself back and they would probably impose an insane customs duty on the Tesla Powerwall 2 anyway, but I'd rather spent my money to the clean future than to help richest to pollute this beautifull land with coal fired powerplants even further.

There is always a choise.

liveaboard

I have lots of friends in the area who live off grid, it's all very doable these days. If it makes you feel better, go for it.

But be aware that battery energy storage is not environmental, sustainable, or economic.
Because batteries wear out [soon], and are made of toxic materials [lots of it].

Tesla is cool, and anything they do gets great press; but they're just one company of many competing for your business. Their products are not magic.

Solar electricity generating [PV] panels have become cheaper and better, fast. But batteries have not.
They've improved a little but, but in terms of euros per amp hour, not much.

Not defending EDP, but it seems most of the electric bill is for distribution. Generation is just a part.

Red Eric

There was encouragement for people to invest in solar power in the form of payment of feed-in tariffs, as an alternative to providing grants for the purchase of solar panels as has been done in some countries.

I'm pretty certain the bailout put paid to that, one way or another.

BlackBeardie

Last time I checked, albeit 2 years ago, the Portuguese government allow you to install a Solar P.V. system with upto 1500W of solar panels for self consumption, which in my opinion - with battery storage is sufficient for the needs of a medium sized household . If you want to generate electricity for income, yes I agree, the conditions are less than favourable.

BillBullock

Maybe the best solution is for the generating companies to invest in huge farms of solar panels so that we don't need to make the huge investment.

AndyPT

Thank you, liveaboard, I do appreciate. If it wouldn't be too much bother, could you ask them for some local online resources on that topic? (Portuguese is ok) They must be sharing their expericence somewhere...

I don't expect them to create conditions for generating electicity for income (though that wouldn't hurt either). There will be no surplus on your energy ballance by the end of the year anyway, so there is nothing to sell. I only expect them to be reasonable, to allow us to store some energy in the network for a while for a small fee, like it is done in most developed countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_metering

In this case you're selling nothing, so there is no base for taxation, etc.

EMR

We are starting to see solar farms.
We have one a few 100mtrs from us.
There are plans to build mega ones.
What ever else you may think of Portugal it is one of the leaders in the % of energy not produced from carbon fuels.

AndyPT

I think the best solution would be the Tesla solar roof + net metering. A house has a roof and it should be covered with something anyway. So why pay twice? (For the roof coating AND the solar panels)

I know, the tecnology is just in the testing stage, but I think it is the way to go.

AndyPT

While I agree with you that 7th place in EU is not that bad, I believe one does not necessarily have to think anything if we're talking about statistics. It is sufficient to just check the figures.

The half of the energy is still coming from the fossil fuels, which is huge in terms of pollution. 60% of renewable energy is coming from hydroelectric, which in its turn heavily depends on rains and we all know how the situation is. "The renewable energy produced in Portugal fell from 55,5% of the total energy produced in 2016 to 41,8% in 2017, due to the drought of 2017"

And finally, as the topic is about solar afterall, there is only 1,6% of photovoltaic solar power, despite Portugal being the second in EU (if I remember correct) by solar irradiance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewa...Union#Portugal

EMR

The drought has certainly had a significant impact on the amount of power produced by hydro electricity increasing the % At times generated by fossil fuels.
Wind and solar will continue to expand.
Maybe there will come a time when the majority of hilltops in Portugal have a wind farm on them and solar parks covering large areas of arid land will be necessary.
" Green energy " is a bit of a con , the equipment to produce the hardware to generate power requires huge amounts of power.
As has been said batteries and solar panels are not the cleanest things to produce and dispose of.
Reducing reliance on imported energy sources however has strategic , political as well as economic benefits in our increasingly uncertain world.

liveaboard

Three are german, they use German sites, one is French, does it all in French, and the one English guy I only see once every couple of years, but he's really into it.

The French guy gets my respect; he goes everywhere on a bicycle, cooks only on firewood he collects in the forest, and lives in a teepee way way up in the hills.
He's pretty close to sustainable living. But even he still has to replace the battery from time to time.

All the technology is simple, off the shelf stuff. It's been around for years.

When you're not going for grid connection, you can do whatever you want, and the material is the same for any country. There a lots of websites dedicated to the subject.
The same material is used on boats, campers, and off grid homes.

Most setups are a few panels and a couple of batteries. In practice, people learn to conserve every watt [otherwise your battery runs out at 8PM].
Run the fridge from gas, and take the laundry out, or do it by hand if you're hard core.

You can spend more money, more batteries and panels, until your fridge runs.
Just remember, don't believe the numbers on the sales blurbs! Those 300W panels might put out 300W at noon near the equator, but in real life you get far less.

One German built house I saw when I was property searching 10 years ago, had a huge tracking solar array, a 5 ton battery block, and massive inverter. They ran everything, like a grid connected house. The setup cost 50,000 Euros from FF solar in Aljezur. They had a couple of neighbors with the same setup.
I wonder if those batteries are still working today? They had big diesel backup generators for use when there was no sun for a few days.

Go visit any of the solar energy firms and ask what they have. They love to show and tell, the stuff is great and cheaper than ever before.

But remember the sales people are on commission and batteries have a short working life.

AndyPT

Thank you liveaboard, this is very helpful. We're going to rent an apartment for the first year anyway and will look for the information and the actual plot of off grid land or even a house in the meanwhile.

We hope to start with something like 20 PV panels + inverter + PowerWall 2 + LPG standby generator (starting from low battery or high load signals) and try to go further from there. This battery has a 10 years warranty, so we don't worry too much about that.

Our main concern for now is safety of entire house when we go abroad for a few weeks. I'm not sure if it is a good idea at all - to leave such an expensive rig in the woods for an extended period of time, not speaking of our personal belongings. Though of course that would greatly depend on the particular land in the particular area and if the security firms there would be ready to work with us.

liveaboard

Ah, the Big Bucks system; nice.

When you go for a setup like that, it will surely be installed by the company tech people, and they'll do it right.
Something to bear in mind though; the warranty on batteries is usually pro-rated.
In other words, should the battery bank fail [which needs a definition, like under 75% of new performance or whatever] after 8 years of your 10 year warranty, they don't replace it, but give you a 20% discount on the replacement, representing the 2 years of use you didn't get.
20% of full list price of course, when you but the replacement from them.

As a battery block for a system like yours is VERY expensive [Tesla or not], you should budget for the replacement as you go, or be able to finance it with credit when necessary.

10 years goes by quicker than you think. Poof, slipped right on by.

The battery warranty will also have requirements for the correct charging system, and probably professional installation. That's all normal stuff, just be sure you're in compliance with their conditions.

One last thing to worry about; Planning permission might require you to have a grid connection. No one can make you use it of course, and you can always have it disconnected the day after you get your habitation license. But it's a question you need to ask your architect.
There are houses built in isolated locations without grid connections, I don't know if they need exemptions or whatever.

House safety; like everywhere, consult with your insurance people and hire an alarm / security firm if you'll be leaving it empty with valuables in and on it.

AndyPT

liveaboard, thank you very much for the warranty tip. It is most kind of you to spend so much time helping strangers. I never would have thought the warranty could work that way, but now I will study this topic more deeply.

"Big Bucks" - well, I wouldn't say so, especially compared to the price of a good land, could be 7 figures easily. Our install should be about 25k EUR, even compared to the price of a decent car here it is nothing unusual. It's just we'd have that solar setup instead of a shiny used SUV, that's all.

"The battery warranty will also have requirements for the correct charging system" - happily Tesla has an internal charger, so it is only the quality of output of the solar inverter and the LPG generator we have to worry about, but thank you for the tip anyway.

Now that one is interesting

The thing is - we have never had a desire to cut off the grid at any cost. It's just from our experience, if you like to buy a beautiful land and you are not a millionaire - the land most likely would have no utilities whatsoever. We'd be glad to find a piece of land of our dream connected to the grid without breaking the bank, but life simply doesn't work that way.

If we'd have the grid - I wouldn't buy a battery straight away. I'd install the PV panels first and check how much energy I'd yield to the grid for the first year. We both work from home, so we could consume in the peaks charging a car, running AC, a washing machine, etc. Then I'd calculate when (if ever) the supposed battery would pay itself back and make a decision. And I would not buy a generator at all.