captainflack

My wife is helping some friends who are moving over from the UK. They've seen a house they like, and she's been talking to the builder for them.

The builder says quite openly to them that there are two sets of plans. One where the sizes are exactly in accordance with the planning permission. And then the real plans they are actually going to build, which are about 15% bigger. He says this is because there is a 15% tolerance/margin, and that when the house is inspected, as long as it is within 15% of the approved sizes, it will pass. Kind of like how the speed limit might be 120, but the cops generally won't do anything unless you go over 130. Wiggle room.

Now much as I appreciate there must be some kind of tolerance/margin allowed, 15% to me sounds ridiculous. The fact there are two sets of plans, one for presenting to the officials, and a completely different set that they will actually build, just doesn't sound right to me. But the builder seems completely open about this.

I've googled, but cannot find anyone else mentioning this, and it's not something I've heard before.

Now it appears that if there are any issues and the house is not approved, the problem would be the builder's to sort out. But that's not really much help if you've paid a lot up front, or he ends up having to make the house the correct size.

I would also be worried that even if he gets it past the initial inspection (I suspect maybe that he knows the inspector and maybe there is something a bit iffy going on to get it passed), this could come back to cause problems later, if there is any subsequent inspection, or if they try to sell the house and it is discovered that the house is bigger than the plans on file.

Does anyone have experience of the building process in Portugal, and can say whether or not this really is as bad as it sounds to me? I obviously don't want them to end up with a smaller place built to the correct plans if these kind of things are what everyone does and are accepted. But I certainly don't want them to get lumbered with a house that is essentially illegal, even if it does pass the initial inspection because the guy (for whatever reason) decides to pass it, but another guy in future might not.

barlaventoexpert

Just don´t do it!!

Speak to an architect or structural engineer first!

Laws are tightening up here in Portugal.

Do nothing without official approval from the Camara!

EMR

To get our habitation license we had an inspection with the plans compared to the actual build.
We also had to have the energy cert in addition to all the others.
Cameras have tightened up as people have been putting in pools, turning garages and basements into bedrooms once project approval was given.
Plus when you come to sell the plans and the property will differ and no agent should legally list your property.

Shanorme

Not only that but when you come to sell, the buyer's lawyer will be checking those plans against the habitation license and if you have a mortgage, the bank will send out a surveyor and the banks lawyer will be doing the same. It will be found out at some point!

captainflack

Thanks everyone. That was kind of my feeling. I was curious whether anyone else had been offered or encountered something similar.

My main worry is not necessarily the initial approval. The builder seems to be pretty sure about this (which leads me to suspect perhaps he knows the guy who'll be doing the approval) and couldn't really hand the house over without it. My worry is that in the future, they will have problems because the plans don't match the reality, so anyone who came to measure up would realise that the house is too big for what was approved. By then the builder probably doesn't care, hence he's probably not so worried about that.

captainflack

The architect is the one proposing doing this!

My wife is going to meet some people from the Camara to discuss this in next day or two. The thing I find curious is how open the architect and builder are explaining in writing, in emails etc. that they are filing fake plans with the authorities, while building to different plans. If they were doing a fiddle, it seems to me they could do that without telling the customers, or at the very least, telling them off the record verbally rather than putting it all in a paper trail.

liveaboard

I also just don't get it; why not submit the slightly bigger plan if you want a slightly bigger house?

A neighbor of mine just had his sale fall through when the buyer's agent figured out the house was bigger than the plan.
What a lot of potential trouble.

Having said all that, I'm going to rebuild an allowed shed one of these days. I'd just love to make it 15% bigger!

GeniB

I have certainly heard of this practice,and actually seen it in a house in Luz.. The builder created staff accommodation in a 'hidden' cellar.. When he had finished the house he blocked up the main window by placing a concrete bench in front of it outside. One that could be knocked down once the house received approval.The entrance to the apartment was also cleverly concealed. The house has since been passed and sold.. So it does work.

captainflack

Because the planning permission is for 150m2. They would not get permission for any more for that size of land and that location. So the builder says that's the permission they have, but they can build 15% bigger and still get it approved, licensed, etc.

captainflack

My wife (who's also a lawyer btw) had a meeting with the guys at the camara today regarding this. They said the permission is for 150m2, and for nothing more, and that the builder should build to the plans filed and not a cm more, or it won't be approved.

The plot thickens. Builder seemed very open and confident about building bigger. I'm smelling something fishy going on.

EMR

If he can get it licensed and approved why can,t he save all the fuss and get it right from the start..

captainflack

It works to a point. But, the plans on file as to what is approved will remain on file. If there is ever any kind of inspection in the future, the house is not compliant.

This is really the problem. If they build 15% bigger than the approved plans, because they have some inside guy who they know will do the inspection and get things through, that's fine. But what happens in a few years time when there is some kind of inspection, and they measure up your house and find it's too big?

They'll look at the plans filed, note that the house was inspected and approved against these plans, and conclude that you've extended it illegally.

Seems risky to me. The builder no doubt will be long gone by the time the merda hits the ventilator.

captainflack

The point is he cannot get it approved in terms of the plans, but he appears confident he can get it to pass the inspection confirming it complies with the fake plans (which it clearly doesn't).

That suggests to me he knows who will be doing the inspection, and there is probably a brown envelope involved.

So he cannot get planning permission for more than 150m2, but he is confident that if he builds 15% bigger than that, he can get the inspector to sign off that it is 150m2 and is in line with the plans that are on record.

EMR

You will then end up with a house that does not confirm to its official plans and paperwork.
In effect an illegal build that officially agents should inform any interested buyer should you decide to sell.

GeniB

I agree with you..Its short term gains..not sure why the builder wishes to risk this?( paid more ? ) The law is tightening up everywhere these days. Its the client who will be left to pay the piper.. as we were for an unlicensed swimming pool and outdoor cookhouse.. luckily not much ...Now though ?