mfesharne

I haven't mentioned costs but will do so now........ for my part of Portugal.

We cook (fully) electric (and I cook a LOT), lights are about 50% halogen & 50% leds, use air con a lot in the summer & winter heating is wood pellets linked to about 18 radiators (biggish but VERY well insulated house) & hot water is gas powered.

Average electricity bill is about €120 pm - We could probably cut that down a fair bit if we chose but I like (most) of the lighting set up we have & it's not unusual for us to run the air con 24/7 in the peak of summer.

Winter heating varies depending on how harsh the winter is but in a bad winter 2/3 bags at about €3.50/bag if I run it from 0700-2100 hours....... In a mild winter such as this last one, I hardly run it at all so an average of less than a bag of pellets a day. - Oh and most of the house is very high/double volume ceilings so a larger than normal space to heat.

Gas costs about €20 per 3-4 weeks or so.

ouriquejan

I'm obviously doing something wrong.

We pay about 12 € a month for lecky, as we also have solar, water pump for pool. Nowt for water, as it's ours, nowt for council tax, as we're new up here and when we do, it's 39€ a year.

Gas is 2 big bottles a year, for cooking and hot water, so that's about 200€.

beer is 80 centimes and wine is 2.50 a litre.

We don't need air con, as we keep the shutters shut when it's hot, ditto the windows.

We grow our own veg, share with neighbours and get eggs and other stuff in return.

Wood, for our two woodburners is 2 ton a year, so 140€

carvoeiro

i suspect youre doing something right - but i find your lecky bill incomprehensible
our standing order is higher than 12 € per month - if we dont have a realistic value of kw input supply the fuse trips every few minutes - other than that were just a very ordinary couple as far as lecky is concerned - fridge -freeer - tv - and the usual things you have to charge endlessly pool pump our own water for the house and irrigation - still has to be pumped out of the ground - average bill 100 per month virtually doubled in 6 years
id love to know your secret

mfesharne

Eish but that's pricey.

Admittedly we live in a good wine area but the local stuff (especially good this year) sells in shops for €5 per 5 litres & many of our neighbours just give it away.

I'd be interested to know if you think growing your own saves you much? - We did try it even though I hate gardening but found by the time you've accounted for the losses to javali & paid the water bills etc it's not worth it when you can buy really good veggies at the local markets so cheaply. - We do keep ducks both for fun & eggs but don't make a profit out of it.

Does the solar go into batteries or is it for hot water?

I did also notice EDP were selling 2 solar panels for about €730 a few weeks ago but each was only about 300w & they keep what power you don't use so I couldn't see that'd be a viable proposition.

ouriquejan

The solar is for all electricity. When we bought the house, it was already in place, a moving one and a couple of static one's. As the batteries are now 14 years old, we've been quoted almost 7,000€ to replace them, so we'll have to bite the bullet and get enough to run the lights and water pump. But as only one has broken down the other 11 are doing a good job., so we'll keep them for a while longer.

We buy things like broad beans, peas, onions, carrots, and only have them in for the winter. Harvesting and freezing every day at the moment, We'll only grow tomatoes in the summer, to save on water.

Haven't have any problems with javali - although they were in the next field for a few days.

mfesharne

The batteries always seem to be the problem but I guess technology improves all the time....... As for Javali, they're a royal PITA in my area........ My first year here, I planted one of my fields with everything from spuds to watermelon & they nailed everything except 2 golf ball sized parsnips so I gave up on that....... We sometimes see 'em in the day & in winter they come right up to the house at night & eat the moss off of the walls.

carvoeiro

so your secret to low lecky bills is to have 20k of solar power supplying most of it - thanks

regarding the 300kw 2 panels directly connected to supply free daytime electricity - the unused goes back into edp for free etc -
i looked into this and worked out we need 9 to fulfill our average requirement - pool pump - irrigation etc - we had a rough quote of 2500
our annual bill is 1200 - 1400 and i worked out by running as much as possible sequentially in daylight hours we would save around 50- 60% - around 600-700 pa based on producing approx 1 kw ph average 11 sun hours - typical of where we live
so a very fast payback

i plan on doing this as soon as we make our decision to stay where we are or move one last time

mfesharne

The reason I discounted the EDP panels was the cost/relatively low output against the guarantee period & I didn't think it was worth it but thst said, one of my neighbours has gone for the deal & is very impressed with it........ it'll be interesting to see how it works out for him in the longer term.

carvoeiro

this is what we are considering
UPAC Solar,Self consumption solar energy system with no feed in to the grid tariff. These photovoltaic solar systems are useful for people with a small home and constant energy consumption, like aircos and swimming pool pumps. The solar system is limited till 1500W and you consume what you produce. If you produce more energy then needed, this energy will go into the grid but you will not get any compensation for it.
the average solar power produced where we live on the south west coast is 1850kvh
so more than necessary to get the optimum solar feed to the system
average price for a 300w panel on ebay is around 250 euros - so 5 - 250 = 1250 +rack and inverter to give the max permitted 1500w - you have to notify edp - but thats all

carvoeiro

the secret to success is having a basic understanding of the main items that eat electricity and making sure they dont all run at the same time
i assume a fridge and freeser wil always run in the background - typically 500w
so you have another potential 1kw on the proposed system to save every hour
the worst users of electricity - average ratings - some of these can be much higher
pool pump - 1500w
irrigation household water pump - 1000w
coffee maker - 1000w
dishwasher - 1500w
kettle - 1500w
lawn mower - 1500w
power tools 1000w
hair dryer - 2000w
air con unit - 2000w
iron - 1000w
microwave - 1000w
oven - 2000w
toaster - 1000w
washing machine 500w
power shower - 10000w - wow

so if you switch as many of these items to run sequentially - not at the same time - in daylight hours - there are huge saving to be made
assume 500w background usage out of 1500w possibly free
eg - boil the kettle 1500kw first - save 66% of cost - make toast 1000kw after it boils -save 100%
run pool pump early in the morning - after sunrise - 1500kw - so 66% saving
assume dual tarif edp - so lower rate for the 33%
i worked this out and just this one item would save around 200 euros pa
most of the other items we use throughout the day have relatively low power usage - tv radio shaver chargers - so would in effect be free to run

carvoeiro

this was a pain to find so heres a link to the edp electricity charges
https://energia.edp.pt/particulares/energia/tarifarios/

another link to eplain the different tarif hours - simple bi tri
i use bi and this link gives totally different hours to what was explained to me in the EDP shop

https://energia.edp.pt/particulares/...opcao-horaria/

RichardHenshall

There are two types of Bi-Horária tariff; the daily cycle which gives off-peak rates for 10:00pm to 8:00am every day, summer and winter and a weekly cycle which gives a shorter night-time period but also some daytime off-peak at weekends (which varies between summer and winter). This is shown in your link.

I think some of your assumptions about power ratings and solar voltaic panels may be wrong. Generally you will not be generating solar electricity at the same time as consuming off-peak electricity. A washing machine will be 2000-2500w while heating the water.

The deceptive thing about generating electricity for self-consumption is that the fastest payback comes from the first panel and it's diminishing returns thereafter. The first 250W runs the fridge, freezer, router, chargers etc (ie the base load) where further panels will only supply the heavier loads when they are in use (ie not all the time). Different properties will have different base loads.

carvoeiro

yep - complicated it surely is
i did a rough calculation over what we could do during sunlight hours - limited that to a max of 1500 per hour and had a stab at the savings and likely payback period

i tried working out by electrical item the annual cost - eg for me the washing machine - we mainly wash at 40c in a new energy saving machine is around 90 euros pa - all of which could be saved during daytime
but i do take your point that several items hit a peak wattage when they start - pumps of 1kw often hit 3 kw when you press the start button etc
if we save 66% of running the kettle - only around 30 cents a day - but quickly becomes almost 100 euros pa saving 60 the small savings begin to add up and make the investment viable
but overall any items not on the above list can run for free with 1500 generated during daylight hours and all of the small annual savings mount up tv radio pc chargers router smaller kitchen stuff etc
and all of the above items can each produce a large saving especially if daylight and tarif savings are taken together
its always going to be a complicated individual calculation - but because we have some heavy loads - pool pump electric oven and irrigation i believe we can make significant savings - obviously if you live in an apartment and have lower requirements one or two panels might be appropriate for you

AllanB

These consumption figures are really not that relevant.

Examples:-

1. 5 minutes in a 10kW shower (which is a maximum consumption where the IC water is very cold and the shower boiling hot) uses very little. average 4-500 watts.

2. A kettle boils in 2 minutes, so divide that 1,500 watts by 30 = 50 watts.

A different story.......

qianh

Just did comparison of EDP tariff and the UK ones, yes the pt one is much more expensive also the tax is 23% while utility in UK taxed at 5%. so definitely will look into cutting down the consumption in future.