captainflack

We used to trust nature and live in caves and ride horses.

But of course we didn't. We had no choice, because better things had not been invented. Now, nobody wants to live in a cave, we live in air-conditioned houses, with electricity, solar panels, hot running water, PVC double glazed windows, flat screen televisions, etc. etc.

It's called 'progress'. If it wasn't better, we wouldn't do it.

EMR

We will not need bees when the GM companies develop self pollinating plants.
If we do not need bees, then what about the birds that feed on grain and other foodstuffs maybe we can develop plants that birds are allergic to.
If we do not need birds the we will not need trees for them to live in or any other animal that serves no usefull purpose.
The Chinese are developing mega indoor cattle farms where the cows will be fed on GM grain and injected with who knows what.
The cows in the field feeding on grass will become a thing of the past as it will not be cost effective for the mega milk processing companies.
Progess is a wonderfull thing.

GeniB

Whoah there Captain. Thats a lot of different things.Not exactly comparing like with like. I am not a Ludite .There's a lot to be said for the light bulb,and induction hobs.I'm not being asked to eat them though.It's taken the USA over 40+ yrs to finally admit that Trans Fats are harmful,even though they had evidence they were in the 196O's .You see there's the rub.I used to believe in so many things way back then.I trusted the church,Banks,policemen,and my Government to protect me. I believed wholeheartedly in Doctors and medicine.Most of all I believed in science.Good lord I have two scientists in my family.However there was thalidomide,there were despicable priests,there were scandals within the law.There has been a catastrophic Banking failure.and my Government invaded Iraq and murdered 600,000 innocent people. Sooooo if some scientific paper says (without long term evidence) that GM crops are safe.Forgive me if I hold off believing them.What I am saying is why has it not been tested? -long term- whats the rush? In who's interest is it to get this irreversible procedure out there yesterday? Are you telling me that GM crops are to be used to feed the poor in the world? isn't that the line behind the hype.If so give me the link to where they are doing this

andypmg

Yes but progress also brought land ownership and use formalities and laws.

There is now little or no choice to live simpler lives.

Progress is you describe it does not mean better.

GeniB

p.s Just in case you might be wondering one of the Scientists in my family is a Professor of Agricultural Chemistry

captainflack

I don't quite see your reasoning as to how the global financial crisis, the invasion of Iraq and the 'murder' of 600,000 people was down to science. I'm sure the detailed explanation will be interesting.

My recollection is that the main protagonists behind the Iraq war were two religious nuts who happened to be running well armed countries, one of whom also as I recall refused to confirm whether his kid had had the MMR jab (presumably because he had not), thereby rather marking him out as a grade-A anti-science nut.

GM food has been extensively tested. My point is that there are many other modern inventions that people use which are not subject to the same kind of paranoia or scrutiny. PVC windows. Who says they're safe? Asbestos clearly wasn't, so shouldn't we also be skeptical about any new building material, 'just to be safe'? Why should splicing genes together be regarded as possibly likely to lead to dangerous side effects? Mixing two or more relatively benign elements or compounds together can result in something far from benign. Yet do we subject every single new combination of ingredients used in food to the same kind of paranoid reluctance that GM is given?

Plastics are extensively used for food storage and packaging, yet are only a few decades old. These contain all manner of chemicals and yet people seem perfectly happy not to worry about either the effect of these on the food or the wider environment.

Of course scientists can get things wrong, but they have a far better hit rate than religious zealots or tabloid journalists. If I am going to form an opinion as to the pros and cons of some new technology, I'd sooner accept the scientists opinion than listen to religious nuts or the woo-believing Daily Mail journos.

The real reason that GM food attracts special attention is not because it poses any more danger, but because the process itself is regarded as 'playing god' - fiddling with something in a way that religion has conditioned people to believe is crossing a red line. It's not the end result that people are really fearful of, it is the method used to create the end result. PVC windows could well pose more danger, plastic containers almost certainly do, and mixing new ingredients in food always has the chance of producing unexpected long term dangers through some kind of chemical reaction. But none of these attract the same level of paranoia and fear because the process used to create them does not go into territory that people have been conditioned to regard as the sole preserve of 'god'. Religion has lost the debate over the creation of the the earth, evolution and is being sidelined by modern social acceptance of gay marriage and other such things. In GM they've found a nice little niche to exploit with fear, in the (apparently vain) hope they can preserve a little bit of a no-go area for science, where only 'god' is allowed.

I do have issues with some of the intellectual property surrounding GM, and I think better laws are certainly needed regarding this. But the fear and paranoia regarding health is being fed not by evidence or logic, but by those with their own alternative reasons for wanting to eliminate GM. As with anti-vaccers, fear and ignorance can be powerful and dangerous.

EMR

There is more than enough past evidence to doubt any assurances given by the GM companies who rely on scientific research and short term trials.
It took years for the effects of DDT and similar to be revealed in nature, not to mention thalidomide and the addictive effects of anti depressants that were handed out like sweeties for decades.The effects of estrogens on fish life etc etc.
We are right to question and doubt anything that commercial organisations keep saying are good for us.

andypmg

Agreed and out of many just one more - The denial by cigarette manufactures that smoking enhanced the risk of cancers. This went on for years - secret studies, millions on PR and advertising etc. The PR machine is worth millions and the corporations seeing profits will stop at nothing to gloss over any concerns.

GeniB

I Agree there is a lot of concern ( i won't call it hysterical paranoia) about GM and to be honest I am not sure why.Maybe it is all part of the present realisation that we have been consistently lied to by so called 'scientific studies' over many yrs. We used to revere anything that had a scientific tag attached to it. (to answer your first question Captain.that was the reason I mentioned what might have seemed like random things.Things we believed in until they went wrong) now we know that Pharma used their own 'controlled' labs to test drugs,and didn't reveal the results to public scrutiny.That the FDA passed drugs that hadn't been sufficiently tested in neutral conditions etc etc.ie we can't trust these Institutions as we once did.

Ingles

This was back in 2014 & was just another step up the ladder by Monsanto to basically try to control the Worlds Seed supply.

The Indian Cotton Farmers are also in deep deep -hit because of the way Monsanto's Contracts where worded !

https://www.rt.com/usa/monsanto-pate...e-farmers-547/

It's absolutely ridiculous in my humble opinion , but Money talks & Monsanto have lot's off it !!!

GeniB

I signed a world wide petition a few yrs ago Ingles to try and put a brake on this company and it's monstrous ambitions.It was on this subject of controlling what we are allowed to grow. and paying them for the GM seeds they are determined will become the norm. Don't get me started on what they have done to Soya and Bananas ,Peanuts

Ingles

This not going to cheer you up, it's a list off the " Seed Patents" Monsanto have registered.
The worse bit, it's only up too 2012


Patent Database Search Results: AN/monsanto in US Patent Collection

Like yourself I joined the campaign years ago, but sadly some Governments took no notice at all in the early day's & are just now realising that a good part off there Agriculture System is now out off there control.

The meaning off "the patents for life" clause

http://www.alternet.org/food/what-it...s-patents-life

andypmg

There is also the fact that Monsanto are using various covers and other labs to do thier work for them and register patents.

And thier use of contrived and somewhat convoluted arguments to involve an agenda of National security. Now why is that important it may well be but hey ho a List D notice is then used to stop publicity.

GeniB

Once they get the North Atlantic Treaty signed there will be no stopping them insisting that GM products are introduced to Europe. Why we persist in thinking that some American companies are just ' Richer ,pushier,better qualified and informed and therefore successful' competitors I don't know. No they are not.If they are big enough however the American very biased law will back them up,they have used the Patents law like a weapon since the early 1900's ,grabbing other peoples/countries work and inventions for their benefit and then locking everyone else out.They do not want to compete they want to control.You only have to look at the Internet..That 'little bit of something and nothing we invented,and let go to the USA.Many other examples, including I might add the horrendous treatment of BP in the Mexican Oil Spill affair.A blatant attempt to destroy a rival company over what was an accident caused by their own companies negligence.

This isn't America bashing by the way.I admire the general spirit of the country and always have.What I don't admire is our 'roll over and give up one' If I thought those five greedy young things who run Monsanto now had an ethical bone in their bodies and were doing this for the good of the poor.I might think again.But they don't and they aren't.It's as always for power and the mighty dollar

GeniB

Note to Captain Flack. Your belief in Science and GM is touching.Maybe you should read all the Data on Monsanto and understand just how much damage this essentially 'chemical' company has brought to our world. It has been responsible for that damaging element in plastics you talk about.It invented DDT.It also invented the growth hormone that was fed to cows and now is in our food chain. 75 to 80 % of all meat produced contains it It was responsible for the utterly horrific 'Agent Orange' and now also peddles Roundup alongside its GM seeds. I think the world has enough evidence of the negative effects of most of the above.Why 'in the world' do we trust this company now over GM?

Oh let me see..Maybe because they have a lobby office three streets away from the white house spending 1.21 million dollars per quarter on bombarding the government to push their objectives. Or maybe because their Board is made up of all the fast food and chemical giants in the USA with a vested interest in pushing their products.No such thing as a conflict of interest in the USA. All the so called scientific studies are done in their labs ,on their premises,in their interests and not for public scrutiny.The safety statements are made by their people. If you don't get it yet. They own us