Charismatic

Obviously being a democratic socialist lefty type I see zero hours contracts as a sort of Victorian renaissance in the working house style of employment.

MrsFychan

how very apt for me at this moment in time. was at a meeting recently where they were discussing staff contracts and it may be good to put staff on zero contracts. the fact that they have not even been paying the minimum wage to the staff for over 4 years, they have not been paying correct holiday pay, the current contracts cannot be used for more than a year yet there are staff who are on it and has been for 5 years and had not offered KiwiSaver went straight over their heads. I feel constructive dismissal conversations in the very near future

Charismatic

A very fair proposal...if staff get to write the contracts .

Hazelnut

I think they should be outlawed. They are being used in the UK to evade all the EU employment law we've fought hard to put in place over the last 40+ years. They are being used increasingly to give jobs to the desperate where they have no holiday or sick pay, no leave entitlement and no maximum hours. If they don't work all the hours they are asked to they are dismissed immediately with no chance of state support for months. It's barbaric.

Persephone

That's the problem, they are being abused by employers who know that employees are desperate for the work/any work. If all employers were ethical and socially responsible there would be no need to make such contracts illegal: cloud cuckoo land!
If you need to hire staff then put them on a proper contract with set hours and pay. Most work places know when they need staff and for how long.

BEVS

TommyLuck may be along shortly. I believe his Dad has actual experience of such a contract.

TommyLuck

My ears were burning ...

And now I'm ranting again. Ah well.


Indeed.

Dad himself isn't subject to a zero hour contract working for one of the big UK (and increasingly worldwide) retail companies, but many of his newer colleagues are and from the old mans point of view, morale is at an all time low with people petrified about all sorts of things that could lead to job loss. Which unsurprisingly really isn't conducive to a productive, healthy working atmosphere.

There are many facets to how wrong this feels.

Speaking for the area where my parents live, Andover, Hampshire typically a town of low unemployment this is hitting young people with no tertiary education in particular quite hard.

Kids with degrees are aiming high are still struggling more than ever before, so the kids who didn't perhaps last the stay in terms education have it rough.

The ramifications of this look pretty bleak. One example; If zero hour contracts become the norm then people in the industries that use them extensively have no hope in hell of owning their own home.

What lender is going to offer a mortgage to someone with a zero hour contract?

My younger sister is 22 and has found finding work incredibly hard to come by, as have many of her friends. She's thankfully now found work cleaning offices, but opportunity is slim and rewards and benefits of the job are pretty limited.

One might feel that the generation coming in to the work force in the UK and here in NZ are up against it as it is. The lack of security that a zero hour contract entails is just another thing 'the kids' have to deal with.

I must add that from the point of view of a business, I totally understand why this is happening. Especially in the UK where employment law is so heavily weighted in favour of the employee. But as Persephone says above, I would like to see the biggest hitters in the UK economy (and here in NZ) be more transparent about their efforts to operate ethically and responsibly.

It's unlikely to happen of course because "that's business".

Zero hour contracts are likely to most widely used in the retail world, call centres, hospitality and admin roles among others. As industry goes in private sector that is a significant number of people who will simply not be able to exercise their ambitions to propser, fearful that making a mistake will lead to their world crashing down - what sort of message does this send to their children?

From a public sector perspective, who in earth is going to want to be a nurse or a teacher if they've got to get through tertiary education only to be rewarded with a contract with almost no security while they try and build their career?

It doesn't appear to be very enticing along with the abuse that teachers and nurses already cop, among a heap of other challenges they deal with daily.

Excellent people, brilliant minds and future pillars of society are just going to vanish.

Think generations ahead this type of employment contract isn't going to lead to a better world, is it?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this and getting this all wrong, but it absolutely stinks.

Barbaric, as Hazelnut puts it, might be an understatement.

TommyLuck

On the other hand we should applaud people like Sir Branson for coming up with innovative ideas like THIS ONE.

Obviously it wouldn't work everywhere, but the premise that as long as you perform and enhance the business over time does it really matter how long you work for per day/hour/week/month/year? It's a very interesting point of discussion. Certainly in roles where you have a tangible target to meet and exceed.

How about Addison Lee who a couple years back trialled a BABIES AT WORK scheme.

Or Accenture who still to this day (to my knowledge) offer 9 MONTHS FULL PAY for maternity leave, irrespective of the length of service.


Whilst we are inclined to have ago at employers because most of us work for the man (or woman) and aren't the man (or woman) there are lots of employers who are trying to improve what they offer as an employer over monetary benefits, which should be applauded.

Pom_Chch

Zero hour contracts are fine. BUT, it seems the whole concept is being totally abused. I've had a few dealings with zero hour contracts in NZ. For the jobs in question, the nature of the businesses and my situation at the time it worked perfectly well for me. I would be called as and when needed when other staff members were sick or shifts needed covering. A "casual" or "bank" member of staff if you will. No set hours, days or times, only when required. Good for filling the gaps between a professional job, yes. But no good if it is your primary job and source of income.

I was a casual member of staff at a hospitality company and had a zero hour contract as they only needed you when events were running at the Canterbury Arena. Events weren't on all the time so they didn't need you all the time, therefore, no set hours. Another place I worked in followed the same concept - they called if shifts needed covering or if others were sick. This zero hour contract has now turned into a permanent job with 15 hours written into my contract. This seems like how the whole concept should be running.

However, it seems that the whole concept is being misused by some companies in order to cover their backs. Not obliged or legally bound to providing you with hours. This is when it gets messy. Zero hour contracts for people needed in the hospitality industry when events are on? Yes, fine. Zero hour contracts for nurses, teachers, police officers? No, totally not OK.

Charismatic

I've been surprised by the level of agreement here about this topic.

Pom_Chch

May I ask why you are surprised Charismatic? If zero hour contracts are used correctly and appropriately then there is no issue with them. The problem comes when such contracts are abused and used in the wrong situation. I don't feel there should be a blanket ban on zero hour contracts, some businesses wouldn't survive if their employees are not on such contracts. There is just no way the hospitality company I worked for could take staff on and provide them with x amount of hours when there are no events to work. They make total sense in some industries, but are also a total disaster in others. I see zero hour contracts unlikely to take off in certain sectors such as nursing, midwifery, teaching etc as these are sectors where business isn't exactly going to dry up.

Charismatic

Exactly I though more people would be fence sitters, they would agree to extreme employment flexibility with caveats or simply say it was an employees right to choose the type of employment that fits their needs. However it appears people just don't like the idea with any number of caveats.

moving2NZ2013

Totally open for abuse. Some take these contract out of desperation.

I do believe in some sectors they are needed. I was on one of these stupid contracts. Some weeks no hours then just rang up short notice and told to come to work now. I had to otherwise I'd have no money. He did this with a lot of people. He could have made a few people full time but preferred this way. As he could be a total a hole

Robbie2010

Nothing wrong with being a casual employee if its suits all parties ... but many "zero hours" contracts are often used to "clock-off" staff during quiet periods while retaining them on site so they could be returned to paid work should the need arise. That is shit!

Blade Down Under

There is something called a temporary contract.

I know 2 people who are waiters at Buckingham Palace. They got rid of the zero hours and changed to a fixed temporary contract. This temporary contract means for any events taking place at the palace, they are required there to work. They get plenty of notice in advance so that they can work it around their other job in aviation

There's a company I know in Sheffield that provide Hallam arena with staff. Again these are fixed temporary contracts that result in them being available for work when there is an event on at the arena.

A fixed temporary contract that only pays when required to work gives you a much better chance to get a house over your head for example. Name me a landlord that would accept someone on a zero hour? It's becoming a problem over here from what I've heard. Also, it gives you negotiation when going for other work. Name me an employer that would take someone on if they've got another job zer hour. How will I know the days you're definitely available or when you will be at your other job?

But at least it makes the unemployment figurs decrease doesn't it Mr Cameron??? Cretin