tigerbolt

It's nice to hear from someone that has been through the same experiences I have and understands how rough it can be. Wow I've only been here 3 years, I couldn't even begin to think how it will be if I was here for 30 years. The grey skies for weeks and months is extremely depressing. It's a shame that I have to use a light therapy lamp 3 times a week and for 6 months or so. My husband doesn't understand how difficult it is because he loves the grey skies and they don't bother him at all. He absolutely loves the Netherlands and it's the perfect place to him. That makes it even more hard to communicate or talk with him since he doesn't realize how difficult it is for me. I love the Dutch culture and society. But I just find Dutch people not so friendly (Especially the Dutch woman) and they like to keep more to themselves. I have almost no Dutch friends and a lot of expat friends. Mostly because I feel like there easier to communicate with, easier to find things in common, and there a lot friendlier. They really just want to get to know you and establish a friendship. I'm pretty shy and I take a while to warm up to people since I'm nervous. I notice Dutch people look down upon people that are less confident, don't speak their mind, and are not opinionated. But that's just in my experience.

I would love the opportunity to move to Spain or Portugal. To experience a new environment and see how things would be, even just for a few months. I've been to Portugal and I absolutely love it there. Not just the climate, but how warm and welcoming Portuguese people are. It's like night and day. A lot of Portuguese people didn't speak English, but they were so friendly and extremely nice. It was also great how curious a lot of them were about where I came from and what it was like there. Funny enough my husband is part Portuguese. His mom is full Portuguese and his brother is even living in Portugal because he has a Portuguese girlfriend. Unfortunately my husband thinks the Netherlands is better and he doesn't like the idea of living in Portugal. He just likes to vacation there. He was lucky to get accepted into a great job position and he has great benefits. But the downside is that I'm unable to find any work and I'm not as happy here. I understand where he's coming from since we would probably earn more here in the Netherlands even with just him working than if we both worked in Portugal since wages are also lower there, but to me it's not just about the money. I would rather make slightly less and work harder if that would mean that I would be happier. There's also a lot more opportunity for me to get a job there since not as many people are fluent in English, so it's more in demand. And since Timmy works in IT, I think he could get a job easily too since IT is a great field. Another reason my husband doesn't want to live in Portugal is because he doesn't want to learn another language ha ha. That's pretty crazy since I'm here taking Dutch lessons and struggling to learn the language. But I do understand that it's a huge dedication and it isn't easy to learn a new language. It would also be difficult to move there since we both don't know the language and it's difficult to get around when everything is in Portuguese. It's not really a problem here for me since everyone speaks English and my husband can help translate things if I need help. So official documents or paper work are always in Dutch here, but that's no problem since he's a native Dutch. I can understand how stressful and difficult it could be in Portugal since we would need to have someone translate everything for us.

But how is the health and dental care there? I'm curious since my mother in law (His Portuguese mother) said that before the health care was horrible and extremely low quality. I'm curious if that's changed and if it's improved. I know the Netherlands has one of the best health cares in Europe and the quality is extremely high. How does it compare to the Dutch health/dental care?

GeniB

Well I don't know where your BIL lives? or how long it has been since you were in Portugal but i can tell you a lot has changed in a very short time,even since we arrived 5yrs ago

Most young people speak fluent English and possible another language apart from native Portuguese Since the revolution of the 1970's a great emphasis has been put on both Education and health care. but I do appreciate it depends on where you live.This is still a poor country

I live in the affluent Algarve with a huge number of ex-pats, Private health care is excellent.actually better than in NL.(where did you MIL get her info from? Dentist are also excellent and not expensive . Public health care is also very good but has taken some knocks since the recession. However waiting times are no where near as long as in the UK. Conditions in the hospitals are second to none. The system has suffered from 'poaching' by other countries for our well trained medical staff .The government can't get i through their head that they have to pay decent wages to keep people.
The wages may be low here,however the cost of living is equally low so for me it balances out. It is more of a struggle for my youngest daughter (who moved here after we left NL) used to London wages.but at least she can afford a home here,that was impossible in the UK.and to have the ocean just outside her window is worth it for her
There are lots of little things that mount up too. heating snd lighting your home...here it's for less than two months a year,heating maybe for only three or four weeks in a very mild winter.(doesn't go lower than 10 deg at night and usually 15/16 deg during the day,It's actually 22 deg at the moment .Thus No heavy clothing to buy. No thick coats ,winter boots, gloves and hats etc etc.
Tax is low. I remember being thrilled with the higher wages offered in NL when we first moved there and then appalled at how fast the money disappeared.Very high tax and Hidden costs we had no idea about.
It's ironic that your OH is in IT. Lisbon has just held the most successful IT conference .55,000 people came from all over the world. 15,000 companies. 700 investors. The idea was to help attract IT companies to Portugal.
It was also ironic that you talked about the best place for you to find work NL or Portugal. If i say that my daughters were brought up in NL from the ages of 6 and 9yrs. were totally fluent in the language and yet once they graduated from universities in the UK spent over a year each trying to get jobs..and failing.. for the flimsiest of reasons. My guess? They weren't Dutch 'punt uit' as they say. They eventually gave up and went to the Uk and the USA respectively where they both obtained jobs within weeks. It is incredible hard to find a job in NL without a lot of hard work when you are a foreigner .
In contrast and after my ED's experience there she thought it would be the same here.. not so ..she found a job within a few weeks despite the recession.and despite not speaking a word of Portuguese .
Language is something you learn along the way. It sounds a s if your OH'S family have already done this once ,moving from Portugal? or at least your MIL did.? It's harder then to add the idea of a third country into the mix.
I think you should make a deal with your OH that you will give it so many more years (5/6) and then talk about it again.(only because it sounds like he is fixed on NL and his good job right now.. important in this turbulent world) You will work hard at learning Dutch and taking the exams necessary to make you eligible for a job. Recognise that you have 'Heemweg' and do something positive to overcome it.It won't go away ,but it will get easier to live with

I remember some life changing advice I heard from an American woman. at the time I was at my lowest ebb 7 yrs into living in NL.. A life coach,she gave a lecture to my women's club entitled ..'Bloom where you are planted.' In effect find the good things about where you are and build on them. Instead of saying it's not like California,or in my case the UK. Try saying i love that you can cycle everywhere ,i love the pretty towns and the canals .I love the cafes..the flowers ,the markets etc etc. It took me awhile to realise why people seemed unfriendly towards me.. I never smiled. Once I started to engage (whether they wanted me to or not lol) and to smile at my mistakes etc. Everything changed. It's true the Dutch are not happy with people who seem unsure of themselves..they are taught to be 'selfstandig' It's up to you to give them confidence in you.. mad but true. Just start by smiling and trying out a few words in the shops..

I had two children to take care of ,and joined as many things as I could to help me cope with being somewhere I didn't want to be. I found playing squash and then badminton was fantastic at keeping my 'happy hormone's balanced.Maybe Pilates or Yoga could also be something for you. All these things are designed to take your mind off the SAD and the things you miss about home...Good luck..

msfi

It is very difficult to make friends with Dutch people, unless they work in an international organisation. Dutch people tend to stick with the friends they made at school, and with many employers paying for home-work travel they have no incentive to leave the town where they grew up. I felt lucky to have 3 Dutch friends when I lived there!

I moved from Australia to Den Haag for a few years a long time back so I totally get the change in climate, and the wake up light/SAD lamp was compulsory for me too (still is, here in London). You have to embrace the differences - the lights in the city this time of year (go to the Reinkenstraat!), the refreshing breeze at Scheveningen in the Winter when at least it's not crowded, cycling in all weather.

I think you should stay in Den Haag and join the American clubs or go to the international desk at the Town Hall, and contact access.nl. Den Haag has more expats than anywhere else in the country apart from Amsterdam. If you moved to a drier city (hard to think of anywhere that really would be that much drier...) it's not likely to be one as international as Den Haag and you could find yourself even more isolated. It's hard and it takes time - but you'll get there!

netherlandsexpat

I have lived in NL for 5 years and now the opportunity to leave has finally arrived - can't wait to get out. Weather is one of the reasons why I don't enjoy living here. There is not much variation in the weather, and the grey skies are a thing everywhere in NL.

I would like to point out that neither I, nor any of my many non-Dutch colleagues and friends think NL has good health care. I have my own experiences and by far prefer the health care in the US. Plenty of horror stories about the Dutch health care system including my own. I believe there was one study that concluded it was the best health care (somewhere) - but you know what this was based on? The amount of money spent per person! Scary. There is no preventive health care either - at least there hasn't been for me, and everything is just paracetamol or yoga.

Your husband is Dutch and sounds like one very close Dutch friend of mine - NL is the best country in the world, and 'alles is geregeld'. He genuinely believes and reiterates that nothing works anywhere else. Having myself lived in 6 countries I certainly disagree.

In my opinion, the NL is such a rough country to live in (weather, crowdedness, rudeness in public spaces) that they just have to blindly believe they live in the best welfare state in order to survive. That is what living in NL is actually, in my opinion, it is only surviving, there is no atmosphere - at least compared to other countries.

There are so many nicer places in the world, and quite frankly so many people, it seems a waste to be with someone that doesn't share your preferences and won't go happy medium with you. You seem young, if I were you I'd reconsider my situation. You only have one life, you shouldn't spend it somewhere that doesn't bring the best in you.

Best of luck and I hope you can figure this out.

Thairetired2016

I'm not Dutch but from a neighboring country. There is no warm place like southern California in this part of Europe. You could of course move to a more southern European country within the EU. Your husband would have similar benefits like in NL. Austria would be a good option, language is easy for a Dutch speaker, good healthcare etc. But winters will be cold with snow and sunshine, summers are great. But it does rain sometimes like anywhere in N.Europe. To be honest, I don't think Dutch ppl are very outgoing. It will take some time before you are accepted. How about joining a gym, sports group where you meet other ladies. Doesn't Den Hague have an expat ladies group or international women's group where you could join?

old wanderer

Netherlandsexpat - I started my travels way back in 1948 as a child and have been across North America and through Europe ever since. Been in the Netherlands for decades and have enjoyed every minute. Working in the engineering sector my experience with expats has been amusing to say the least and have found the biggest moaners were all from English speaking countries. None of them made any attempt to learn the language and did nothing else but complain about the country, the worst being a dumbo from Long Beach. So my advice is pack your bags and please leave as the country can do without you.

Red_Wine_Fairy

Why do people always think that is such a simple option? Almost everyone who moves here (or any country that is not their homeland), unless they KNOW they're on a fixed term work assignment, is bound by commitments.

Spouses, children, education, mortgages, jobs, even pets. Not all have bucketfuls of money to just say "hey-ho, let's pack quit my job, pull little Johnny out of school and shove Tiddles in her basket, and fly off for a new adventure". That's exactly the kind of thinking we discourage all wannabe expats from doing, because they read the travel blogs and believe the hype and think it's so easy to do (with no idea of how it looks to hit the skids if it all goes pear shaped in a foreign land).

Only young backpackers, single executives, and old hippies can just up-sticks and move on. Not adults in the real adult world. Not people in low income jobs who don't have anything left to save for 'emergencies'. And most certainly not people in marriages with natives from another country.

netherlandsexpat

Indeed, for me it has been a well-thought out exit strategy, and some key events will happen in the next of couple of months as part of that - these are fixed dates that cannot be changed and I cannot leave the country before then. Planning the exit strategy for some time also gives you time to re-consider, re-consider and re-consider some more. So that I am sure this is the best decision for me.

netherlandsexpat

I am glad you have found a country you are happy in. Generally, the country can't really do without being the 3rd worst tax haven (Oxfam's latest report) and the many immigrants that come willing to work full-time. The tax haven economy will likely be affected by Trump's policies (48% of USA Fortune 500 companies us NL as tax haven and Trump wants to address that it seems).

I learned the language; that didn't change the grey skies, the stormy weather, the food offerings, the people cutting in front of me at every chance, etc, etc, etc.

NL, as with any other country, is not for everyone. I am glad there are people that enjoy living here. It is not for me.

Philp1

Tigerbolt
I also go through exactly the same
The weather makes us very depressed
I think you need to be born here and love the grey look
And hate the sun
Otherwise it is tuff
I am so much more drained and down ever
And we went through 2 winters already but still crap
Yes it is safe to live here but my opinion is not for too long as the immigrant crisis i think will stuff things up in mear future, comparing to gramce and sweden, it is coming

For us the medical here is not that good
We come from a upcoming so called 3rd world country but medical there(private medical aids) is firstly much cheaper than here
Secondly it covers all including dental etc
And you dint need to pay first 385 euro minimum yoirself
There its otherway around a part of your medical is a cash savings which means you have a certain amount for dental, medication and specialists for the year and if you dont use it it actually roll to next year, so if you didnt have that expenses this year then mext year you have double that available and so on
So you can build up(if you would leave the medical aid then you get that build up part paid back to you!!)
if you maybe do go more than that for the year then you do pay ypurself but then direct at even lower prices, so i saving anyway
And at a certain point then the medical pay again, it is a self payment gap then medical pay again
But we hardly had to do it
It was always enough and i went for full checkups with full bloodtests once to twice a year
(That will cost 200 euro n shot here but it was only about 80 euro there, so much cheaper and also results same day or next morning, here i wait a week)
So medical is not as good and expensive here according to us
They keep paying less and you pay more

Taxes is also very high here

We also decided after our lids finished studying we foing back
At first the idea was to stay fully permanent and kids study here and work here
But no ome likes the weather for a start
Secondly living costs high and wont be able to do what they could do somewhere else like where we from
We cant go now as kids in study so we thought wait it out
Otherwise too much lost
I just cant understand with such high taxes, personal and VAT
Why is it also so expensive to live
Things like basic living can be ok but if tou want to do a sport or hobby then it is extremely expensive
So here tou will just
Eat work eat sleep etc everyday
I am in same job as transfer here and we cant afford to do what we could as just too damn expensive

So yea i feel exactly what you say
If it was more affordable to do things so you feel better to overcome the miserable weather then it could help

Yes it is difficult to male friends
We in eindhoven and you everywhere feel out
Even if speaking a bit dutch
We love bushveld camping which is not possible here
At first we thought it might be good and you het used to it
But no, it is just too many changes
Weather, expensive, friends and family, not easy to make friends, environment and how thinhs done differant etc
So good is not enough against were we come from

We are from South Africa for info
So far we leaving in 3 years and 5 months
Lol
And counting

Philp1

Hi old wanderer

We all happy you found a place you love
Grey and cold without sun

I can see that you travelled but also mostly north america etc which has same weather as here, so you are used to this
We on otherhand come fromnplaces which has sun, much better weather
Much more affordable medical
Affordable to do all sports etc
The weather is also not depressing
If retiring it is fine as then mostly relaxing in house and dont do things like that as much anymore
I am 45 and still do and want to do certain things that are here just way to damn expensive in comparison in other countries
Medical is ridiculous expensive too
We are going back
We came here for my work and thought not as bad
We knew it is differant but not this much
We were free and could afford to do a lot
But now not able as all too expensive and also the weather is not made for what we love to do

Dont worry
We know that there is much better than this, and that is called home
Maybe out of all northern countries and cold places netherlands is the best one
But ever looked more south of equator?
I hate being as depressed here due to this weather, for 45 years i lived with more freedom and excellent weather and affordable sport hobbies and camping etc
If i thought it would be as bad we would never have come
I am also in engineering field for info

We are waiting it out
We cant wait 3 years and 5 months and counting

netherlandsexpat

Hi Philip1, I just wanted to say I know the feeling when you still can't really see the light at the end of the tunnel! I was in that situation about 3 years in. Now things have all fallen into place and I should be moving out in a few months.

I live alone so never realized that to do things as a family is very expensive here.

In my opinion there is a lot of denial about the negative aspects of this country, and extreme nationalism. 'Netherlands is the best', period and there is no single hole in that conclusion whatsoever. I have been told exactly that by a Dutch friend - who has never, ever, ever lived anywhere else, whereas I have lived in 6 countries (and in many more cities)!! I call it Dutchsplaining.

All countries have pros and cons, but you just can't discuss on an even ground with them - or at least the majority of the ones I've met I should say.

100s of thousands of Dutch live abroad, and many of those I'm sure would never come back.

I was talking about this topic with a colleague who has a PhD and who said, yeah I like NL and this is the best place - despite again having lived nowhere else.

He said, 'I don't mind the weather, I mean you are always inside anyway'. Can you believe that? A PhD holder unable to make the connection between the atrocious weather and the 'development' of such a barren culture. Compare, e.g., to the incredibly rich and diverse culture of Spain etc. You are always inside BECAUSE of the weather!!! And that is sad and boring!!!

What normally shuts these types up is when you ask why is the NL male suicide rate twice as that of Spain, and why is the female suicide rate THREE times that of Spain??? And that doesn't even count euthanasia!!! Which is done in NL but not in Spain.

Moses2013

Well, you'll find plenty of people in Spain inside all day because of weather, or let's say long working hours. It's all relative and suicide rates have nothing to do with that alone.
We're all different and some people need to travel to find a better place, others stay where they are, some need heat, some need cold etc.






Regardless of weather, I find the Netherlands too overcrowded and flat for my liking and every time I drive through I miss true nature. All you see is houses, flats and while you do see some nature in parts, it's man made.

netherlandsexpat

Oh no I didn't intend to link the suicide rates to the weather, but just as a fact that casts doubt on the statement that everything is better in NL.

The overcrowdedness is also one of the top ten negative factors that did it for me.

Indeed in Spain you would likely find me hiding from the intense heat during July and August, but that's only 2 months of the year. The culture developed and remains as a lively outdoor/street culture and that is an aspect I like.

The heat in that case is no different for me than the triple H weather of the US northeast (hot humid and hazy) which I dreaded and would stay inside if possible.

The long hours I think is limited to some industries, the prospective employers/colleagues I've spoken with do not lead such a working lifestyle, perhaps it isn't as laid back as in NL, but it also isn't the working hours I was used to in the US.

old wanderer

Well Philp 1 As I said in my last comment just pack up and go back to where you came from. It must be so much better there, living with barbed wire fences surrounding people houses and all the racial problems. A good friend of mine worked there and another guy I worked with, a South African from Johannesburg, told about how life was in the country. Great weather and countryside but lots of problems. Again, why do people come on these websites just to moan, just looking for sympathy?