Fugee

For quite a while, I’ve said that if Britain left the EU, I would go down to the local council house and apply for Dutch nationality. Not that I have any allegiance towards the Netherlands, or Britain for that matter, but to protect my rights in the country that I happen to live in.

My Dutchess has always considered this idea to be a bit stupid, particularly because she says I’m in no way Dutch, but I showed her a newspaper article where José Manuel Barroso questioned whether European countries would continue to offer British citizens the same rights as other European nationals it Britain imposed restrictions on free movement and she sort of understood my viewpoint. It’s not that I’m worried out being kicked out of the country. I have no idea how Britain leaving the EU might affect me, if at all, but I’d rather safeguard myself than find out later when it may be too late.

I was reading the local council website this morning and it said that I had to take the “inburgering” course. Thinking they couldn’t enforce that on a European citizen, I went down to the council house to talk to somebody. I was told I don’t have to take the course, but I would have to pass some tests to prove something or other – it’s language-related rather than knowing the names of the king and queen and what colour the national football team play in.

Also, if I wish to have a Dutch passport, I would have to “afstand doen van” (voluntarily give up) my English passport. However, if I was married to my Dutchess - we're not, although we've been together for more than twenty years - I could keep my British passport. (Today was the first time we've ever discussed getting married.) That got me thinking. What would happen if I ever wanted to return to the UK to live? I don’t have any plans to, but I never had any plans to live in the Netherlands either. Would it be difficult as an EU citizen to move to Britain if Britain did leave the EU and there were restrictions on movement? Could I easily get a British passport again to make it easier to move there? I’ll probably ask about getting a British passport back the next time I’m over there.

I’m not thinking of getting a Dutch passport just yet, but what I may do is have a go at the inburgering test and see how I get on. Even if I pass it today, it could be used any time in the future to get a Dutch passport.

Am I the only one thinking of changing nationality? Am I overreacting? Am I being prudent?

calman014

"Afstand doen" from your UK passport is not correct for an EU citizen. Nobody can force you to do that. You can have both and they will live quite happily alongside each other. Being Dutch does help reduce some stupid bureaucracy and paperwork for you but also commits you to some other obligations which may be detrimental to your wallet one day.

As an EU citizen you don't have to take the "Inburgerings" course, but of course it does make sense to learn at least elementary Dutch.

The "restrictions on movement" thing is just a bunch of hot air. Don't worry about it. The fact is, Barosso is and always will be an idiot. Wait for the UK elections then we will see.
Those rules are unlikely to change. How you interpret them is something else, and UK hasn't woken up to this yet it seems.

Many politicians in UK are sleeping (as you can often see on TV) especially in respect of what UK is entitled to as a member of EU. They need a kick up the back end and start using some of the massive EU funding and subsidies available to them. Perhaps then all the news about EU wouldn't be so negative.

The whole problem is the old "Political Establishment". The Scottish Independence vote rocked the boat a little as will UKIP. Let's wait and see.

My own forecast is that NL will have it's own economic problems in the near future based on the void between politicians and real world events. Sounds just like the UK doesn't it!

Red_Wine_Fairy

I'm also in the 'wait and see' category. I honestly don't see that the UK will leave, despite all the current hype. If and when it comes to a vote, the reasons for staying (a yes vote?) will be heard much louder than they are being heard right now, as it did in Scotland. Large businesses who have already stated it, will become more vocal about leaving the UK if it's no longer part of Europe ie. when they lose the free-trade agreement (not sure why Cameron thinks he could keep this part of the package while rejecting the rest!)

If it really does come to deciding between the two, I think it's how it will hit me in the pocket that will affect my decision. Will the UK demand tax on my earnings if double-tax agreements are scrapped? Will I have to pay €800 per family member for a visa? Will I need to do inburgering? I somehow think that 'special arrangements' would come into force as there are tens of thousands of Brits here, with jobs and mortgages - I'd envisage a temporary period where we could exchange passport without conditions.

Frankly, if the Dutch get a bit arsey about it, I'm lucky enough to be able to live in another country (my husbands job covers EMEA so we just need to be near an international airport), and I won't hesitate to sell up and ship out. But I won't return to the UK should they vote en masse for Farage - I would no longer recognise my countrymen. Only a war on the continent would make me return, and with Putin's sabre rattling, it's enough to make me cling to my British passport right now for my children's sake.

JAJ

English passport? (No such thing exists).

Assuming you refer to British citizenship, there is no inherent entitlement to get it back if you renounce it.
https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-...sh-nationality

If you become a sole Dutch citizen, your rights in the U.K. in future are contingent on whatever future arrangements exist for EU/EEA state citizens in the U.K.

If you're otherwise committed to each other, and getting married and/or registered partnership means that you can have dual Dutch/British citizenship, it's not clear why you should wish to wait longer. As far as I know there has been some discussion in the Netherlands that this dual citizenship loophole should be closed in the future.

Being a Dutch citizen also means you have some additional rights in the Netherlands, including full voting rights and a Dutch passport + ID card.

mikelincs

Even if the UK leave the EU, citizens will still have free movement through the EEA agreement.

Fugee

The lady said that they can't force me. To get round it, I have to do it voluntarily. Otherwise I would not be issued with a Dutch passport.

I was told that was only possible if I was married to a Dutch citizen.

In what way detrimental? I was thinking it may be the other way round.

Speculating, let's say the British decide that they are not going to give beneifts to non-Brits. The EU doesn't like this and decide that what the British do to others, they can have done to them. What would then stop the Dutch deciding that Brits can't have a government-issued pension, despite me paying into it my entire working life?

It seems far-fetched - alarmist even - and I'm not saying such a thing will happen, but I don't want to find out anything unsuspecting years later.

And my daughter said she likes the idea of me becoming Dutch, because she will no longer be half British.

Fugee

Not as it stands at the moment if you can pass the test without attending the course.
The lady I spoke to said she thought it cost € 80 to take. I may take it (she said it was language-based and that, speaking to me, she couldn't believe that I would fail) so that I have it in the pocket before the rush.

Gordon Barlow

There's an interesting thread on the Germany forum on the topic of dual nationality within the EU. Check it out. JAJ - thanks for the link.

calman014

If you are an EU citizen, you do not have to surrender your (British) passport.
Taking Dutch Nationality is an option, not compulsory.
Also there is no law or rule forcing you to do so. That you are 'encouraged' to do so is something else. Politicians are still arguing about it..

If you are properly registered in NL as an EU citizen then you have the same rights as a regular Dutch citizen. It's a matter of personal choice.

FlyingDutchman6666

Calman, you're confusing two things here.

Yes, Fugee can continue to live in Holland as a British Citizen. As long as the UK remains an EU/EEA member, he can benefit from free movement.

But if he wants to get Dutch citizenship, he very definitely needs to give up his British citizenship, unless covered by an exemption. Such as marriage to a Dutch citizen.

Can they force you to give up your British citizenship? Of course not. But they will simply not naturalise you as long as you haven't arranged to give it up.

FlyingDutchman6666

Being a member of the EEA means you're still subject to the vast majority of EU laws, including free movement. And there is still a bill to pay for access to the common market.

Except that you get zero voting rights and zero say.

Hard to believe that UK would willingly leave the EU to join the EEA.

calman014

I have several practical examples where the own passport has been retained. You do not have to surrender your passport. The "dual passport" argument is still very much ongoing and therefore not compulsory. This also applies to NON-EU citizens. There is a big difference between what you get told at the "Gemeente" and the actual law as it stands.

Some foreign countries forbid you to surrender your passport or citizenship.

Marriage to a Dutch Citizen is not the only exception to the rule.

There is still a wide margin between "old" Dutch laws, habits and pre-conceived ideas, and actual EU legislation. Why do you need a residence permit in NL when you are an EU citizen for example? Why do you have to pay for it?

The fact is you don't need one and if the EU country where you are resident requires you to have one it's supposed to be free of charge. (EU Law and recommendations).

As you can see bureaucracy takes a while to catch up.

FlyingDutchman6666

Calman I am sorry, but I respectfully disagree. If you want to become Dutch and do not qualify for an exemption, you will have to give up your existing citizenship(s).

The rules have been on the statute books for many years now.

Google "Rijkswet op het Nederlanderschap", article 9. I hope you read Dutch.

EU citizens are not exempt.

calman014

The list of exceptions is quite long and varied! And if you look it depends entirely on your personal circumstances..so..you don't automatically have to give it up. I rest my case.

Exemptions to the requirement to renounce foreign citizenship

An applicant for naturalisation does not have to give up his current nationality in the following cases:

where the original nationality is automatically lost upon naturalisation as a Dutch subject
the legislation of the applicant's country does not allow renunciation of nationality (for example, under Greek law[21])

the person is married to or the registered partner of a Dutch national.

recognised refugees

born in the Netherlands, Aruba, Curaçao, or Sint Maarten, and still living there at the time of application.

where the person has lived in the Netherlands, Aruba, Curaçao, or Sint Maarten for an uninterrupted period of 5 years or longer before age 18.

where the applicant cannot be expected to contact the authorities in the country of which they are a national.

where the applicant has "special and objectively assessable reasons" for not renouncing his existing nationality.

where in order to give up his/her current nationality the applicant would have to fulfil military service obligations or pay for such military service instead of fulfilling it. This must be demonstrated in each case.

where renunciation of the applicant's existing nationality would cause "serious financial losses" (for example, inheritance rights). This must be demonstrated.

where in order to give up his/her current nationality the applicant must pay a large sum of money to the authorities in his or her country.

These exemptions do not hold for citizens/subjects of Austria, Denmark and/or Norway, since these countries (together with the Netherlands) signed and ratified without reservations and never denounced the Convention on the Reduction of Cases of Multiple Nationality and on Military Obligations in Cases of Multiple Nationality (see Chapter I, art. 1, paragraph 1).

This was also the case for Belgian subjects until April 28, 2008, since Belgium denounced Chapter 1 of this treaty on such date.[24][25] In a similar way, this was also the case for Luxembourgian subjects until July 10, 2009.[24][25]

Assanah

I think the possibility of the UK leaving the EU is coming closer. Today Merkel announced that she will not try to hold the UK in the EU any longer should Cameron attack the right to free movement for EU citizens. She says that this is one of the main EU rights and if the UK wants to scrap this right there will be no way the UK can stay in the EU. The UK is closing in on the red line. Kind of bad news for the EU I think but Europe will survive. To be honest to show the EU the finger in a time of crisis justifies the speedy exit of the UK which involves cutting off UK citizens to any right to live and work in EU countries (except the UK citizens who are already living in EU countries but this would probably mean no easy access to dual citizenship, definitely not Germany). Of course the UK could join the EEA but this would still mean to have EU citizens come to the UK and EU laws being applied to the UK. I would think this to be unacceptable for the UK.