Netpon

We moved to the Netherlands last June with my 11 and 9 year old children. Initially they both went to international schools but we moved my 9 year old to the local dutch school in November. He is doing really well and picking up the language quickly.

My daughter, who is 11, nearly 12, is currently still at the international school but we are wondering whether to move her to the dutch system too. If we did I know she would have to go down a year because there is no way she could take the CITO exams this year. She currently has a long journey to school as well as long school days so she is very tired. It also means that she doesn't have the time or energy to join in any local clubs or activities to make friends in our town. Of course it would also be nice not to have the school fees too!!

We are planning to stay here for at least as long as the children are in school but I am a little concerned about holding her back a year. She is bright and I'm sure she would pick up the language quickly.

I wondered whether anyone else had any experience of integrating a child of this age into the dutch system?

calman014

The sooner you take the plunge the better, or your older child will be at a disadvantage.
The longer you put it off the more difficult it will be. Time to make some decisions.

Red_Wine_Fairy

I had 2 go straight to Dutch education (aged 5 and 9) and 2 went to International School, then switched (aged 14 and 15).

I would say the opposite. Let her reach 12 first. This way, she can go straight to Schakelklas (12+) which is intensive, immersive Dutch (with some subject lessons also in Dutch) but no pressure to do the CITO within a specific timeframe. CITO, NIO or a similar test will be done informally at the time the teacher thinks she's ready, and the results used to dictate her education stream. She will have a less stressful year while she learns the language, but might still need to travel to the nearest big town (or city).

You also need to keep in communication with the school: if they know you're supporting her, they will push her and are more likely to give her a realistic 'advice'. Sadly many immigrant parents aren't supportive of the education (or don't understand the system) and accept a low 'advice' as good enough, and often these kids end up in trade schools. However, from my son's international schakelklas, some children did end up referred to VWO or HAVO (including mine) because the teachers know that family support + a good test score means that the child will succeed.

Finally, ignore any subtle hints that your child should stay at the school where the schakelklas is held - take her to the school open evenings (currently taking place) and look around a few local ones to see which suits her needs best, once she's finished her schakelklas year.

Netpon

Wow, that's really interesting. Thanks so much for that. So she would stay with her year group if she does this course?

The Hutspots

If your kids are quite smart then you might consider a TVWO - Tweetalig VWO school. If they could get a VWO recommendation from their international school then that may be a good option for you. The first 3 years are bilungual with a good deal of the lessons taught in english! Plenty of time to pick up the language and friends and switch to a regular dutch school.
May be worth looking in to. I have been approached on several occasions by TVWO schools about coming to teach their. They try to get native english speakers to teach the classes wherever possible. I teach maths at a regular HAVO/VWO secondary school here because I am lucky enough to speak the language ok after donkeys years!

Give me a shout if you want more info on the TVWO schools.

Red_Wine_Fairy

I can't stress this enough. A child will not get into TTO unless they already have the score/indication/advies for a VWO. They won't get the score for VWO unless they are both fluent in Dutch and achieving in the top 10% of their group in Dutch.

Absolutely. Positively. Won't. Happen.

I know what I'm talking about, I was at a TVWO meeting at the High School my daughter is going to attend in September: she started learning Dutch aged 5. They rejected my fluent English and Dutch other daughter several years ago because her advice was only for HAVO, and I know of only one Tweetalig HAVO, which is in Amsterdam itself, and one Tweetalig VMBO-T in Amstelveen. The key factor is the Advies about which level a child will attain, and very few get VWO (from my daughters class, she was the only one with a direct VWO indication)

Telling expats coming freshly from the UK that their child will get onto the top education stream without fluent Dutch is setting false expectations. A child needs to be absolutely fluent in Dutch to reach VWO level.

The Hutspots

Ouch. Education really is going to the dogs! I just read my own post!
Bilungual education - guess that shows how bilungual I am! I can't even spell bilingual!

'...about coming to teach their' ..... Lol. Teach their what! It should of course say 'there' as in the school.

I blame this darn Ipad. Yes teachers do have an excuse for all of their mistakes!!

I was just trying to be helpful. The poster says their child is bright. I call VWO students bright. I do not profess to know how the teachers at an international school would classify bright students and whether they would be able to give them a VWO advice. I also do not know if that would be acceptable to at least be given a chance in a TTO brugklas. It would sound like your experience would probably mean that some dutch schools would not find it good enough. I just thought it may be an option for some really bright students to see what the local school would say. It was just an idea. I thought there would at least be no harm in asking. Sorry if I offended. It was said with the best intentions.

Netpon

Thanks for all your advice. I had also heard that the TT schools pick the cream off the top and only choose fluent dutch speakers.

There is only one TT school local to me and that is a MAVO school. The others are in Rotterdam which will mean she is doing the same journey that she's doing now, which, along with the cost, is the main reason for us looking at alternatives.

The same applies to Schakelklas unfortunately. The only schools offering this in my area are in Rotterdam, an hours train and bus journey away.

Looking at the options, I think she will have to drop back a year and attend a local school for the next 18 months in the hope that she can then get a place in a appropriate senior school. It's either that or continue with a long journey into the city on her own

Red_Wine_Fairy

Ouch, I just read my post too, and it sounded really harsh - I'm really sorry for coming across like that, Huspots

I know that posts relating to education are among the top reads on any expat forum (for years after they're written). I was just trying to put some accurate information out there for future reference, because emigrating has enough pitfalls.

Here's a wall of text to explain what I meant, for those brave enough:

VWO kids are the brightest 5-10% of students, who are expected to be future Masters/PhD achievers. When the time comes to enrol at high school at either VWO level or the other streams (HAVO and VMBO), the child will get an advies/advice from their teacher, who will base their assessment on their knowledge of the child, their AVI reading score, and the formal tests they've been sitting during the last two years at primary school (known as CITOs). There is also a final test, similar to the UK SATS, which the high school will want to see (although from this year, the eind-CITOs are taking place later, so the end exam is less important as the results come back too late).

CITOs are in Dutch only and the marks cover 4 areas: Dutch reading, writing, comprehension, and Maths. That's all. To reach this level of Dutch will take a child quite some time to achieve, and so a newcomer would achieve a low score which would not truly reflect their intelligence. A straight-A student in the UK could achieve a low VMBO-basis advies here, simply because they aren't fluent in Dutch.

Some British parents get upset when primary schools then say 'we'll keep your child down a year', because it's not in our psyche to do this (in the UK system, every child moves up every year, regardless of performance). The Dutch system is a little more like the American one: achievers can move up/skip a year, and non-achievers can repeat a year, it's not a big deal here and teachers who suggest that a child stays down are doing this only to help the child attain a higher standard (of Dutch) moving forward. They can only repeat a year once.

As I'm wavering offtopic, a high school needs to be certain that a child is studying at the correct level. You can enter tweetalig/bilingual VWO only if you have the advies/indication that says you can achieve this. As a number of subjects are taught in Dutch, this must also be up to VWO standard because they won't hold the class up for one child. Remember the repeat a year once rule: if your child can't keep up even after repeating the year, they are removed from that level of education and placed in the one below: this has happened to my daughter's best friend who is sadly no longer at the same school, and also to my best friend's daughter. This might seem harsh, but the certificate they receive is not like UK style pass or fail in individual subjects - it's all or nothing. You either achieve a six average across every subject, or you don't graduate. This is also where it's different to the UK - a university won't offer you a place based on As or Bs - you either passed your VWO or you didn't It gave way to an expression here called zesjescultuur (sixes culture), meaning - no need to go all-out/do the minimum necessary to get the result.

Just to put another straw on the camels back, it's also required for these children to learn two out of the following; French, German, Spanish, to a near-fluent level, and if the child does VWO (Gymnasium), Latin and Ancient Greek too That's one heck of a burden for a monolingual child, as most British kids are.

On the positive side, high school education is not the be-all-and-end-all. Sometimes children on the borderline choose the lower stream deliberately, because they find it less stressful to do this first, gain the leavers certificate then go on for an extra year to get the next certificate: in other words, it's possible to covert a VMBO to a HAVO, or a HAVO to a VWO with an extra year or more's study afterwards. And native Dutch students have no issue with starting higher education when they're into their 20s (at a time when their British contemporaries are almost finishing).

Ok, I think this is tl;dr by now for all but the most masochistic of readers.

Basically: Two-language education (TTO) still contains subjects taught completely in Dutch, and all the upper school exams are in Dutch - therefore it's not suitable for a child fresh out of Britain with no or limited fluency.
A high school is very, very unlikely to take an unproven child onto such an intensive course, so have reasonable expectations if you come here with a child above the age of 9, don't take offence at the advice if your child's teacher offers to repeat a year so that they can grasp Dutch before the exam year, and understand that the system here differs in many ways to the British education system.

The Hutspots

Wow. That was a pretty concise summary of quite a complex subject. I think that will be a valuable explanation to lots of prospectives dutch bound brits with questions about their kids entering dutch education. Thanks. Now i wish i had written an explanation like that!

Red_Wine_Fairy

Thank you for making me realise my first explanation probably wasn't sufficient for a concerned parent considering moving here with an older child And I apologise for typing your name incorrectly.

I picked up a lot of things when I first moved here because the education system simply was unlike anything I'd known, and combine that with the matter-of-fact way that the Dutch teachers delivered their opinions.... I could happily have throttled a few, at the start. But I have to hand it to the Dutch, their Maths results mean they are the only Western country ranked in the worldwide top 10, so these (you!) teachers are doing something right