Shard

They would not be too happy, but in a truly secular UK, they would not be given a choice. I would strip away any tax/charitable concessions to faith entities as well. They should be funded entirely by membership.

Shard

Why would you have to outlaw private schooling? You simply make it illegal to promote a religious view at schools. We don't permit the teaching discredited racial theories or holocaust denial, the same can be done for religious belief. It can be done, relatively easily. Will it be done? No. And here is the risk of having more religious people in the society, secularist ideals will be constrained and religious ideals promoted.

Shard

Although I agree with your sentiments, it's not that hard to understand why they wish to retain their own culture. Britain did the same through centuries of colonial rule, and you only need to check out the Spain and Middle East forums on BE to see how little fellow Brits are interested in adopting the local culture. I think with the religiously inclined, it's even harder as they take their cultural norms from a 'higher source'. If long term social cohesion is the goal (and it is) then the emphasis should not be on accommodating divergent practices (clothes in pools) but discouraging such practices. We in Europe have our own culture, a highly enlightened culture, and we should not accept backward practices or thinking.

holly_1948

Outlawing private schools would be better though.

Not only would it overcome the teaching of religious extremism - but it would also go a long way to promote a classless society. And deter a "Who you know rather than what you know" way of life. In someways similar to the school bussing that took place in USA a couple of generations back.

More exactly, you don't outlaw private schools (that is not feasible in all conscience) but you do require all children to attend state schools. They can do private schools or "home schooling" in their spare time when not attending the state schools. Summers, weekends, nights, whatever.

There might be some short term cost but there is a long term payoff in defeating extremism and privilege. Of course those who have benefitted from privilege will fight tooth and nail to defeat putting an end to it, that is to be expected.

holly_1948

It's not like they entirely came here of their own volition. More a case of force of circumstances, unlike the ex-pat British who live near the Med..

I read from newspaper reports that the 21 year-old suspect is named Yahyah Faroukh and the 18 year-old suspect was born in Iraq. That pretty much confirms what we all suspected. What it would take, in the long term, for this to stop is for the NATO countries to stop stirring up wars in the Middle East and Africa. We are not close to that or, as far as I can see, even moving in that direction. Yet.

Shard

I am actually quite sympathetic to the plight of any refugees, but those individuals are a minority. Saudi Arabia is funding a mosque building program throughout the UK and Europe, and we as a society need to understand the full dynamics of what is going on.

Certainly the West should stop stirring up wars in the ME. That is part of the problem, but only part. The main issue if extremist fundamentalism, and that can rise with or without wars.

Lion in Winter

Thank you.

War, destabilization of states, and poverty feed extremism of all kinds and cause social dislocation of all kinds.

Blaming it on cultures "being forced to mix" is absurd on its face and that tactic is an apparently effective tool of manipulation of public thought. Cultures have been mixing since time began, but it's far better that we all fret about that than shine a light on the corporate amorality, abetted by national governments, that uses some parts of the world to drive the profts, businesses and lifestyle of other parts.

And we expect no fallout?

Pulaski

I assume you have never browsed The Sand Pit.
Ain't that the truth!
This too!
And that's a good thing, but is the exact opposite of multiculturalusm, which is a divisive policy and the same as the "separate but equal" strategy that failed in South Africa and the post civil war South in the US.

Pulaski

Many private schools are church owned and controlled, my sister went to one herself, my father worked at one too, and curiously my mother worked at a third, but that was state funded but church controlled. How on earth do you expect a school to run if it is prohibited from extolling the cultural virtues of its owners/controllers? Another example. In Gloucester, but repeated in most cities, is that there is a school tied to the cathedral, I really can't see how you could enforce secularism on such a school. What do you suggest seizing Bibles and burning them?

Aside from that, I think you are entirely misses the point, that Christian schools, and Christianity in general, in the 21st century promote an agenda that verges on pacifism. As far as I can tell Hinduism and Buddhism are the same, encouraging a non-aggressive approach to life, but you want to outlaw the teaching of all religions because of the bellicose philosophy of one religion. Apart from the idea of being scrupulously "fair" to all religions no matter how offensive their teachings, don't you think that is a bit of an overreaction?

robin1234

"The same as...?"
Not really. Separate but equal was a strategy to palm off inferior races with inferior services (schools, water fountains etc) backed by legal enforcement. Multiculturalism is a voluntary program - presumably you'd agree that Orthodox Jews, or strictly observant Muslim families, are allowed to integrate into general society if they wish. The only compulsion may come from their relatives and coreligionists, not from the State.

Pulaski

The mechanism and motivations might be different, but muslims are being allowed to build a state within a state, keeping their own community separate from the larger society. This state of affairs seems to be true to some degree in most western countries, not only the UK and US, but also France, Germany, Sweden, etc.

robin1234

What about Sikhs? Their entire religion is based on military service and the warrior ideal. But in Britain it is happily harnessed in support of the British state, and the public services.

Pulaski

Well spotted! I did leave then out deliberately, and for the reasons you mentioned.

I also left Jews out too, given their militaristic mother state, though am sympathetic with the relatively limited scope of Israel's struggle simply to be allowed to exist.

Shard

Simple, answer...I don't ! I'd like them to weaken there stranglehold over their flock. If families want to indoctrinate their kids in their spare time or weekends, that's ok (I'd prefer they didn't, but I am a liberal at heart).

I agree that most religions (Islam included) provide spiritual and community benefits to followers. But they also perpetuate irrationality. Look at that Rees Moggs (highly educated MP) in the UK, banging on in this day and age that life begins at the point of conception. These kind supernatural beliefs hinder society, and for no good reason. Why perpetuate medieval thought systems? I don't think it's an over reaction, I think it's modern thinking, and I'd like more people to get on board.

Look at the turnaround Western society has made on gay rights in the last 20 years, you could not have predicted such a rapid substantive change of philosophy. It's about tipping points. My faith is that we will get to that tipping point on religion within a few decades. Social media and globalisation is making the spread of ideas faster. New ethical dilemmas to do with AI will dwarf much of the simplistic wisdom of our desert dwelling forbears, and things will change.

morpeth

I would think there are millions of Europeans who would question whether the multiculturalism agenda has been "voluntary".

I don't understand, how are Orthodox not "allowed" to integrate- they may not , but do seem to accept the need to respect and follow the laws of the country they are living in.