NiceOneDelBoy

Hi fellow ExPats,

I’m struggling, well we are struggling, with whether we should move to the UK. I’m a British citizen, my wife is a US citizen and we have young kids. When I first moved to the US 20 years ago it felt like a new sort of paradise. Over the years I feel like things have slowly declined as a country. I don’t want to make it political but I’m 100% against the current administration. Gun crime seems to have exploded, and I feel like it’s not just access to guns but a mentality of apathy and hate bubbling to the surface. Am I just being over dramatic? I see these horrific school shootings. Nothing changes. Other countries have a mass shooting and those in charge say no more guns and their citizens are like “fair enough” and it’s dealt with. There are millions upon millions of guns in the US- how will that change even if the law changes? Would ppl turn them in?

I live in a pretty nice area, my family come over and say it’s “dead posh” I grew up dirt poor in the Uk. Here My wife can stay home with the kids. It felt untouchable. Then shootings started around our area, just recently one in our neighbourhood. Then a friend was shot and killed protecting his family.
I have a good job that pays well and job security. But is that enough/worth it?

Then I just got a note saying my child’s (6yr old) school will start performing intruder/shooter drills. He worries enough about typical stuff but this is a whole other level. I know in a way it’s good they prepare but do I want to live in a place where he has to prepare?

Then I think of home, no legal guns, free healthcare, more socially conscious, a better place to raise a child, maybe?
But I know we won’t have the same lifestyle, I won’t get the equivalent pay, but can we still have an ok life? I hate to move and regret it but I hate to stay and regret it. I may be pessimistic but things seem to be going from bad to worse here.

So how does one decide?
What do we do with all of our stuff if we move?
Do you think Brexit will be an economical concern?
If I had to work in London, live outside, how much household income would we need roughly to live (renting at first)?
I don’t know where to start. I have a pro/con list going.

There’s so much going through my head so any advice, info, or a good clip round the ear would be much appreciated.

Ta very much

cyrian

Hi NODB,
The UK can be really expensive compared to the US especially in London and the South East.
My DD lives in London near Wimbledon in a typical 100+ year-old terraced house with almost no front yard and a small back yard - no garage and only on-street parking.
She has 5 bedrooms and the rental for her house would be £3000+ per month.
The daily commute into central London is a nightmare with packed buses; trains and underground.
The commute from outside London is also bad and very expensive. People commute from 60 - 100 miles away.
The South-East is very overcrowded with lots of pressure on services like schools; hospitals and housing.
London is arguably the most cosmopolitan city in the world and it is sometimes difficult to hear another British accent on the tube.
Some areas have large immigrant populations - look up the ethnic populations in Ealing for example.
Every country has its problems and they seem to be worse than before.
HTH

scrubbedexpat056

Hi,
No one can answer your questions except you as I'm sure you're aware. We are in a slightly similar position in that we are moving to France from UK and are thinking of many of the things you are. One thing I try to do for my own sanity is divide the facts and the emotions and try to think of them separately. One good example would be crime and the perception of crime. They may align from the same initial research, but a closer look will invariably show where they differ. I assume that, horrible though the recent killings are, the chance of your kids being murdered at school or any of you in daily life is still statistically remote. That doesn't lessen the very idea of living in a society obsessed with guns, but there you have the head versus the heart argument.
On purely practical issues of living in UK the following things spring to mind from my own experiences.
Commuting. This is generally a nightmare in UK unless you live close to where you work. The rail system is a national disgrace and won't be fixed any time soon. Parts of London are in almost permanent gridlock. This is not based on my political views, just a reflection on the infrastructure. Commuting into London is probably one of the worst commutes in the country. I tried it from Kent and ended up setting up my own workshop. If you want to work in London, but can't afford to live there I would seriously think of finding work in a more user friendly city.
What to store and what to send home. We have lived abroad on and off since the nineties and have been storing stuff at a cheap rate in a friend's barn. We have now realised we have spent more in storage, even at a cheap rate, than the furniture is worth. Obviously the personal belongings are a different matter and we will keep them in my inlaw's attic until we buy a house in France. But all our furniture is being sold with the house. It's a bit of a cliche, but the expression 'do you own it or does it own you?' is something worth thinking about when it comes to extremely costly storage.
Without this thread degenerating into a Brexit slanging match, I can't believe that the UK economy isn't going to be negatively impacted, at least in the short term, from the referendum. Interest rates are certainly going to go up and must be factored into your budgeting.
That's probably enough of a ramble for now. Hopefully others will join in and give advice, which you a free to take on or ignore as appropriate.
Good luck with it all.

yellowroom

Yes, of course you can have a good life back in the UK, but only you and your wife can decide what are the most important things to your family (eg size of house, garden, schooling, job availability in your profession).

You mention London - is that because of family or job reasons? I'm a bit biased, but I think quality of life is better in many ways outside London & South East - housing is certainly more affordable, and can more than offset lower salaries such that you end up with more disposable income.

Would it be possible for you and your family to take a decent length holiday back in in the UK, staying in house or flat (eg via AirBnB) in your preferred area and living like "normal" to get a feel like what life would be like for you? Doing it may help you more than thinking about it, especially for your wife and child if they are not very familiar with the practicalities of life in the UK.

Caroline in Arizona

Despite my homesickness I am glad that we have stayed in the USA until retirement. There are 2 reasons for this. Firstly, our boys had a stable upbringing in one place. Secondly, I have really enjoyed my time in the workforce here. I have always felt respected, appreciated and have been well-compensated.

However, if 23 years ago we had been told that our 6 year old was going to start intruder/shooter drills I would have said to my DH “It’s time for us to return to Scotland .”

Caroline in Arizona

I also recognize that we are incredibly fortunate to be in this position where we can decide between countries.

HKG3

Before making any decision on whether moving back to the UK or not, the OP should look into getting British passport for his kids. He should also renew his own British passport if it has expired. This will make a move back to the UK a lot easier. Please note that British passport application fees will go up on the 27 March 2018.

NiceOneDelBoy

Thank you all for your responses. It’s great to get different opinions.

I would be considered a Trade Credit Underwriter and most of the jobs I come across are in London. I would prefer not to work in London. My family are largely in the Oxford area. I would work anywhere really. Like one poster said they’ve been very fortunate to live and work in the USA. I don’t completely disagree. I’m in a very fortunate industry that has treated me well and will likely treat me well for the foreseeable future. And I wonder if the poster would agree the US is not the same country he/she first came to. But again- same could be said for the UK.

We went back to the UK about 10 months ago and it was hard for all of us to leave. There’s just a sense of community that I have never felt in the US. Obviously everyone’s experience is different.

I understand ultimately the decision is one of ours and ours alone. And the chances of probability of my child being involved in a school shooting is remote- my thought is not just specific to the chances of x happening but more of the changing climate and the increased brutality and the reason that my child has to do shooter drills. Or that teachers are now receiving triage packages. (Although when looking at percentages your 5.5 times more likely to be murdered in the US).

I guess my over arching question is the US seems to be heading IMO in a certain direction. Part of me says don’t wait until it’s too late and the other part says we won’t have the same quality of living.

It’s hard to put my thoughts together so I was just looking for advice. Appreciate the advice on passports. Mine was just renewed and we are in the process for our kids.

Thanks again. Sorry if I’m not concise in what I’m seeking answers to and just rambling.

Caroline in Arizona

I definitely think the climate has changed since we came here in 1985 in our 20s. However I no longer know if that is perception or reality. There is something so raw about the school incidents that rational thought gets forgotten. My DH is far more concerned about muggings and knife attacks in the UK and has had several friends severely beaten up in the UK prior to us moving over here.

Our 3 sons are glad we raised them here, are very proud to be American citizens and our son currently residing in Scotland misses Arizona every day.

Psyman

Hi Delboy


Pretty much every word you wrote is going through my head these days too. After the Newtown massacre I thought I couldn't stay here in the US anymore, but inertia meant I did stay, and with two little kids now as well its even more difficult contemplating MBTTUK. To say that trump is a pathetic excuse for a human being is understating it, but gives you an idea of my perception of him as well as his republican colleagues. If I could click my heels and wake up back in the UK with a decent job and somewhere to live, that would be great, but the ability to get a job from 6000 miles away, and the difficulty of getting a spouse visa for my wife, mean that making the move just makes my head hurt.

I have no idea of whether we would be happier, richer, healthier etc in the UK - that would be a gamble. Things generally are pretty good for us here, and I earn just enough for my wife to stay home with the kids. I don't think I could do that in the UK as I'd probably be on about £35000 there as opposed to about £55000 here. But it does seem like food shopping and utilities are cheaper there when we have been in the UK for visits. Having 5 weeks paid leave would be nice too, and bizarrely would mean we could spend more time on holiday in the US than we can now (cost of holiday, aside)! Probably the biggest challenge for us if we made it back there would be my wife "getting" the British sense of humour, (black humour and sarcasm, or both) that she often just doesn't get when it exits my mouth. I am from the south east (Dover) so it would be nice to be near family, but it seems that on the salary that I anticipate, it would be difficult to get by with my wife staying home, so maybe we should consider a different part of the UK. She was a teacher here - no idea if she would be able to get a job teaching in the UK.

I don't think there are any answers for those of us thinking of making the move back. I've been in the US about 20 years too. But, yeah, the thought of my kids not having to do active shooter drills, and stay a bit more innocent for a while, would be a great bonus. Let us know if you make a decision. I am picking the brains of some former colleagues back in the UK about my profession there, and will try and make a decision in the next few months.

Caroline in Arizona

We have 2 workmen in our condo all day so I’m spending way more time than is probably good for me on this forum.

Anyway, I’ve been doing some research and there are schools in the UK that are currently doing lockdown exercises with their students. Also, what about air raid drills during WW2? I think the world has always been a mixture of scary and wonderful. However, between the MSM and social media it has enhanced our fears.

There are no easy answers.

NiceOneDelBoy

I don’t want to have this turn into a gun debate. But when I brought up the intruder lockdown implementation in our local school, it was to me a wake up call. The fears I have are ones born out of guns, and the political climate, healthcare. It just seems there’s less and less concern for people’s well being and safety from those whom are supposed to represent us. My worry is with 265MM guns out there how can it change.

The UK has some of the toughest gun laws born out of tragedy:

Michael Ryan's massacre of 16 people in Hungerford in 1987 led to the banning of all modern semi-automatic rifles, the range of guns that can be fired rapidly without needing to be reloaded.

Nine years later, Thomas Hamilton killed 16 schoolchildren and their teacher when he opened fire at a school in Dunblane. Parliament banned all handguns and there is now a mandatory five-year jail sentence for possession.

Do you see anything even equatable happening in the US? And that’s what worries me, it’s like oh another school shooting let’s make rules about how to prepare for an active shooter, let’s give teachers guns- but you’re just putting plasters on gun shot wounds.

You mention WWII and I get your point but didn’t record numbers flee to the UK for safety during that time?

Sorry I went on a little rant. I just hate the feeling of being put in this position where I feel I have to decide but I don’t know how to decide and I don’t think anyone can know 100% what is best.

Benson55

From what I hear crime in the UK has gone crazy over the last 20 years as well.
From gangs coming in from Eastern Europe to kids carrying knives.
Depends where in the UK you are going to live.
Nowhere in the first world is the same as 20 years ago now.

yellowroom

where did you “hear” that? Overall crime is going down in the U.K.

Moses2013

Indeed and there seems to be a lot of false information out there. Of course there always was crime and there always will be crime, but you can also avoid it. As you say, in many areas it's going down.


I don't know if London would be my first choice, but people all over the world face the same challenges with money, commutes and jobs. No job in the US is safe/guaranteed and it's the same in the UK. There are many nice areas in the UK, so it's personal choice.




We all have choices and each case is different. I live in Ireland and you'd also have people in Dublin feeling unsafe, because of gang shootings, but I wouldn't judge the whole country. Where we live, I don't have to lock the car and I feel very safe. After going to Germany recently, I felt a lot less safe there. But that often has to do with the city or location, rather than the country.