Originally Posted by Mathguy

Important discussion, but it starts to get off topic people (y)

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH

Absolutely. Without the market there would be no civilisation. Of course there's more to civilisation than the market but the market makes civilisation possible. The market is what started civilisation and the market is what drives civilisation.

It has been argued that why the Islamic world went into a sharp economic decline was because of their difficulties with the interest issue, and when the European world evolved out of the medieval mindset and embraced interest wholeheartedly, the European economies really took off and the economic well-being of the east/west rapidly diverged.

Anyway, I would reaffirm that people looking for a less materialistic, less "greedy" and more socially responsible place to live, the GCC is the absolutely last place on earth you'd want to move to. It's all about money here, strictly about money, and absolutely no consideration or support for people who are not citizens (and expats have no chance in hell of becoming citizens). You want social responsibility? Stay in the West, which has a much better developed system of social and communal obligations towards others and is far, far, FAR more inclusive and tolerant and progressive than any country outside the West.

Originally Posted by Miss Ann Thrope

Why do I somehow get the impression that the answer you are seeking to hear starts with J and rhymes with the news?

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH

Well you are, if you have a savings account or invest in the markets.

Let's say you have 100,000 QAR and deposit it into a savings account at a bank. Is that money really in the account? No. It's electronic figures, not physical stacks of money. You can go into the bank and withdraw the whole sum in cash but while it's "in" the bank it's electronic figures. Just like the electronic money you can't understand.

Interest is the privilege for lending the money. In fact, when you deposit money into a savings account, you are actually lending money to the bank. The bank rewards you by paying interest on your savings account. The bank wants your money because they can in turn loan out the money to other people, whether for a mortgage or for a new apartment tower, and make money off the interest on those loans, which they in turn use to pay the interest on your savings account. This is, as expected, a simplified explanation, but it does demonstrate in part how money can literally be created out of thin air. You have "made money" even if you did nothing but park 100k in the bank. You have made a profit. There is no shame in profit. Why should there be?

If people are "enslaved" to interest it's usually through bad lifestyle choices and decisions. Money itself is not the enemy.

Originally Posted by ReesanDemha

As I always tell my children, read the question before trying to answer !!
I asked where money comes from in the first place - and the ever increasing amounts that get created out of thin air.

The interest that is charged on this new money from thin air, the 'profit' as you call it, is a reward but what gives the money 'generators' the right to create money and then lend it out with an interest charge on top - which they control themselves.

Biggest scam in history - designed to enslave the world and exert control at every level of society - from individuals, to corporations to Governments.

You are right money itself is not the problem - the problem is that it is worthless bits of paper / digits on a computer screen - that are totally manipulated by the same crooks who printed/created it in the first place - and once you put inflation into the mix, then its a double whammy.

Originally Posted by ReesanDemha

As I always tell my children, read the question before trying to answer !!
I asked where money comes from in the first place - and the ever increasing amounts that get created out of thin air.

The interest that is charged on this new money from thin air, the 'profit' as you call it, is a reward but what gives the money 'generators' the right to create money and then lend it out with an interest charge on top - which they control themselves.

Biggest scam in history - designed to enslave the world and exert control at every level of society - from individuals, to corporations to Governments.

You are right money itself is not the problem - the problem is that it is worthless bits of paper / digits on a computer screen - that are totally manipulated by the same crooks who printed/created it in the first place - and once you put inflation into the mix, then its a double whammy.

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH

Hardly. Money is the greatest thing ever created by mankind. Nothing so succinctly or easily converts our capacity to create (intrinsic ability), whether that of an individual working with his hands or a large corporation producing a good, into something physical (exchangeable) as money does.

Look at the people who lived without money. How did they live? Primitive stone-age tribes. There's nothing stopping you from moving out to the desert and trying to become totally self-sufficient, but I like my money and the quality of life it provides for me and the thousands of years of civilisation that's gotten me to this point.

As someone once pointed out to me, morality doesn't feed you. Faith doesn't feed you. But money sure does feed you

Originally Posted by littlejimmy

Without wanting to get too hippy-dippy, there surely must be some acknowledgement that the use of money and the system we now have in place, i.e. fractional reserve banking and the pursuit of infinite growth in an finite world, has caused problems which have been largely ignored, or kicked like a can down the road, but which we are now seeing the results of with climate change, pollution, mass extinction, resource depletion and so on?

Originally Posted by littlejimmy

Without wanting to get too hippy-dippy, there surely must be some acknowledgement that the use of money and the system we now have in place, i.e. fractional reserve banking and the pursuit of infinite growth in an finite world, has caused problems which have been largely ignored, or kicked like a can down the road, but which we are now seeing the results of with climate change, pollution, mass extinction, resource depletion and so on?

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH

You're blaming these things on money. The risk is turning it into a red herring. Money is not the enemy. The danger is restricting the capacity of money to stimulate innovation. Money is just as valuable in driving green technology as it is for the big bad boys of oil and coal.

Originally Posted by Sabi Star

I read somewhere that we are never likely to communicate with any intelligence in outer space simply because the window of time for such a ''civilization'' to last is only 200 years and their 200 years is unlikely to correspond with ours.

Originally Posted by littlejimmy

Not really. I'm blaming the system that money has created. And money is after all an artificial construct, so the ultimate blame lies with humankind and its desire for shiny new things to impress their peers with.

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH

In other words, human nature, not money, is responsible for what you see as a mess? You conveniently ignore that this same greed is responsible for the dramatic improvements in the quality of life for billions across the world. Tremendous scientific and health improvements, technological improvements, quality and stability of the food supply, the everyday comforts of our lives. Very few people are living in worse conditions than their ancestors.

Money is just as capable as acting as a force of good as it is a force for bad. Money can be used to exploit resources, money can equally be used to renew resources.

We can have a valid argument on whether the current economic framework has perhaps gone too far in a certain direction. The ancient Greeks argued that moderation was the essence of a proper life, both in the soul and in the real world. So perhaps we should instead seek to moderate our approach to life and desires for good, rather than blame its ills on money?

By the way, virtues such as good (and bad) and justice and kindness are all artificial constructs that cannot be proven beyond an idea that we should have faith in these virtues. Money, at least, is genuinely real.