QSFP23

With only 14 months experience in the construction industry, I am concerned that I may have to wait another 5 years until I will be deemed an attractive candidate for QS jobs in the middle-east !

To date, I am proud of my achievements which include gaining a 2.1 Bsc Honours degree in quantity surveying and commercial management, successfully getting a job with a UK leading main contractor (with international businesses), and working toward MRICS status.

My next and long anticipated goal is to work on large value projects but would like to begin this journey whilst my commitments in the UK are limited. I am 23, single and have no children. I fear that if I wait until I'm in my 30s, I am likely to have one of the aforementioned which could stand in the way of my ambitions.

I'd love to hear from anybody in junior/assistant level QS roles currently in Doha or any other middle-eastern areas for any advice on where best to find what I am looking for... so far I have applied for various jobs but have found the vast majority to require 10+ years experience.

Many thanks!

DubInRiyadh

Yes they prefer older more experienced people with family commitments as they are likely to put up with a lot more shit as they have a family to provide for.

Also you wont advance your career experience except to say that you worked on a project worth billions. If I was a UK employer, I wouldn't touch anyone coming back from the Middle East.

Bahtatboy

Well, there’s certain a lot of validity to the previous post, but ultimately it comes down to what your long-term goals are. There are three aspects you need to consider: first, the difficulty you’ll face in getting a job (that’s “difficulty”, not “impossibility”); second, the potential impact on your training and future employment; and third, how that all fits together with your goals.

Regarding finding the job in the first place, the greatest hurdle you’ll face is that you’re still wet behind the ears in terms of experience. Put in front of big, ugly, experienced clients or subbies (or anyone else in the supply chain), who don’t play by the rules that have been developed and refined over a century or so in the UK, and you’ll struggle. However, not all your potential employers will be looking for all their staff to be at the front line, and you may well find one who needs the skills you have at the price you’ll be willing to accept. Qatar is booming: try dropping a PM to Scamp, and getting in contact with other agents operating in the region.

If you land a job with a major British-based consultancy, then there may be the opportunity to continue your training and gain experience in a highly-professional environment, but I would imagine that most jobs won’t give you that. Have you completed your TPC? That should be a major consideration for you (is it still called TPC? I did mine 30 years ago…). These things are important, because they will definitely have an impact on your future job prospects—many employers (especially the professional ones) place a lot of value of where you gained your initial experience, since it can shape how you function and evaluate situations. Having said that, if you get thrown in at the deep end and do better than survive, that may create other opportunities for you.

Which brings me on to your goals. What do you want to be doing in 10 years? That’s an important question, because you’re just embarking on the path that will take you there, and spending even a couple of years on a path that won’t lead you where you want to be could be very difficult to correct. Having said that, there are few certainties in life (especially working life), and even the best laid plans of mice and men go to ratshit. At your age I had no idea what I wanted to be doing (although I knew I didn’t want to be in private practice), and took a leap into the Middle East; its worked well for me (although I did have 3-4 years experience by then).

Hope this helps, and good luck.

Bahtatboy
BSc (QS) FRICS (and a few other bits n pieces)

QSFP23

Bahtatboy/DubInRiyadh,

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.

With regard to long term goals, I'm trying to keep an open mind. As you suggest, although a plan is a good starting point there are too many variables in life to get into too much detail too soon.

That being said, as a guide, my current and very detailed plan would be as follows:

- Work for my current employer for a further 1-2 years until I have gained MRICS status (this involves an APC which I think we can safely assume is the 'TPC' equivalent?)
- Gain employment in the middle-east (I haven't ruled out any other countries/regions but with salary as a primary driver, it seems to be one of the most generous)
- Continue for 5+ years whilst taking care of my personal spending (I'm not sure how realistic this is as I've heard the cost of living can be high in well populated cities/towns).

this is where my plans start to become slightly less decisive..

- Settle with (hopefully) a nice sum of cash in the bank. Where will depend entirely on my thoughts at the time but I imagine this to be a slightly more liberal, shall we say, westernised country (I know the 'grass ain't always greener' but I don't have any particular interest in returning to the UK if we were to base the decision on my current preference).
- Perhaps continue to work as a QS / more senior job role depending on my experience at the time. or start a business of some description.

It might be worth adding that if I decided to stay in the UK, my preference would be to continue through the ranks with a main contractor.

Would I be right in thinking that the majority of the jobs for expats in Qatar etc are focused on the PQS side?

and finally.. what is Scamp?

Thanks again, your input is much appreciated!

mikewot

Very good question! Just what is Scamp?

scrubbedexpat141

Piss off you.

QSFP23;

- Yes you can get work out here, but it's going to be a hell of a lot easier if you know someone here already who can 'vouch' for you.
- I'm looking for a QS for a consultancy in Dubai at the moment, they want young Brit/Oz/Saffers etc. But they're looking around 5yrs. That seems to be the lowest that I get asked for.


Now. You HAVE to be realistic, please don't be offended if any of the following sounds rude:

- Work for a good, big name company. IF you want Contracting then get into Balfours, Carillion, Skanska, Laings etc. Don't work for John Smith General Contracting. You won't get looked at.
- Remember the first few years are key and give the foundation. For example; Paul who worked for a tin pot local contractor doing primary school extensions at 150k a pop for 6 years compared to Peter who got into Laings and worked under a heavyweight Commercial Manager and looked after a small package on a 50m commercial development. I know who 99% of companies would want to pick.
- I still look back at the early stages of any commercial manager's CV. Bahtat for example had an alright start (I'm sure he won't mind me saying), but then got overseas early and spent really good periods with big name companies. Boom. Career started. International career doesn't start by fannying about with mickey-mouse small firms.
- Keep your options open, don't just think; Contractor or nothing. Contractors out here do 6 day weeks generally. Consultancies out here can still offer decent cash money and opportunities the same.

Experience wise:

- Work on different projects if possible, try to experience as many types as you can, don't get pigeon-holed too early.
- Complete projects. If you can put on your CV that you were responsible for some cost estimates, maybe even some cost plans, the procurement of subbies, the contract administration (to a level), then responsible for overseeing the work, CLAIMS handling / response / writing and final accounts.... All this shit is massively useful. Many 'Commercial Managers' are very much post-contract guys and some people want a blend. Take consultancies - they want people who can procure sub-consultants - you'll be amazed at how many haven't.


Anyway

What I'm saying is, if you want it, nothing to stop you trying now.

If you can't get it now, get GOOD, VALUABLE experience in the UK and try again. MRICS will help, they ****ing love stuff like that out here.

Finally:

- Don't get picky on countries, consider Qatar, UAE, Oman even Kuwait and KSA - once you're here you can see your value grow.
- Don't jump at first offer - if it's from Mohammed Bin Flip-Flop contracting then come and ask a few of us on here first.

Good luck mate.

Bahtatboy

Yeah, my first 5 years weren't great, and to a certain extent I got lucky with my first overseas posting. Luck happens--both good and bad.

PS: If you want megabucks, think niche. Lots of ways to go niche, but the best at it are those who are truly interested in what they do, coupled with the ability to take infinite pains (the definition of genius). Niche means being better at something specific than almost anyone else, and with a relatively small number of competitors. If you already know what you're really good at, work out how to develop that.

DubInRiyadh

Do you have the contact details for 'Mohammed Bin Flip-Flop contracting ' I like the sound of them...

scrubbedexpat141

Good point.

Your move to the farthest East was probably the making of you, or at least set you on the right path.

Yeah, forget that might be offensive to some. They're awesome though, the never pay salaries on time.

Bahtatboy

Just wondered if that comment is laden with irony.

scrubbedexpat141

A good friend of mine is a Contracts/Commercial Manager with a local contractor. I warned him about salaries but they were chucking a good role and package etc.

He had to fight for rent cheque. He has been there 4 months and been paid twice. He's fighting for money every single month.

There are very few companies I would warn any candidate of. Any that don't pay on time and any that have such a bad reputation that we know we'll be getting a CV back off the person within 12 months.

Dumbo

Some very good advice in there, great post.