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Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

Old Oct 9th 2017, 9:57 pm
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

Originally Posted by carcajou
Human Rights complaint for a company transfer? Are you serious?

They absolutely can do involuntary transfers in critical situations.
Obviously you don't work for the Federal Govt. Note I said Human Rights type and there are other means within the workplace for such grievances.
Its not a transfer when you don't request it or you were hired for a specific position in a specific place.
What effect does that transfer have on other family members i.e. wives, husbands and children?
Its not as simple as saying Constable Smith you are now being transferred to such a Detachment because you speak French/English.

Now this is not the same type of case but involves a Federal employee who launched a CHRT grievance which IMHO is less of a complaint than a forced relocation
https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/chrt/do...?resultIndex=2

Last edited by Former Lancastrian; Oct 9th 2017 at 10:08 pm.
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Old Oct 9th 2017, 10:11 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

Originally Posted by bats
Rimmersion isn't essential to learn a language.
Maybe immersion isn't but real opportunity to actually use the language is surely the only way to achieve fluency? My oldest took French right through from grade 8 to 12 and passed at honour roll level, and scraped a pass in a second year course university course in his first year (along with québécois and French immersion students who also scraped through) and although the university course improved his spoken French he would still not count himself anywhere close to fluent.

Last edited by Teaandtoday5; Oct 9th 2017 at 10:13 pm. Reason: Crappy typing, and terrible punctuation
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Old Oct 10th 2017, 12:30 am
  #33  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

Originally Posted by dave_j
Perhaps you've been influenced by those about you where you have lived. If you look at the stats, the percentage of canadians in the different provinces who speak both english and french were reported to be:

QUE 44.9, NB 34.0, YUKON 13.8, PEI 12.6, ONT 11.2, NS 10.5, NWT 10.3, MAN 8.6, BC 6.8, ALTA 6.6, NL 5.0, SASK 4.7, NUNAVUT 4.3

So it's heavily weighted towards the two provinces of interest and here in the west I've not heard french spoken by other than a few passers by.

.

The problem is those stats are for the whole province ...... and every province has enclaves where one language is much more common than elsewhere.

For example, BC, there are apparently over 300,000 who speak French on a daily basis at home, the 4th largest community of francophones in Canada. Over 70,000 of them live in the Vancouver and Victoria areas

Who knew?!!

Maillardville, an area of Coquitlam BC, is an enclave settled in 1909, and celebrates its French background with a Festival du Bois every year.
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Old Oct 10th 2017, 1:09 am
  #34  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
...who else do we get the figures from?
Try asking the Govt how much it costs and good luck finding such a report.
Are you suggesting freedom of information is a fiction?

How do they (Fraser) get it then if it's not forthcoming?

Last edited by BristolUK; Oct 10th 2017 at 1:11 am.
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Old Oct 10th 2017, 2:33 am
  #35  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

Originally Posted by Teaandtoday5
Maybe immersion isn't but real opportunity to actually use the language is surely the only way to achieve fluency? My oldest took French right through from grade 8 to 12 and passed at honour roll level, and scraped a pass in a second year course university course in his first year (along with québécois and French immersion students who also scraped through) and although the university course improved his spoken French he would still not count himself anywhere close to fluent.
Lessons from year 1 to 12 would have a significant impact on their knowledge.
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Old Oct 10th 2017, 9:52 am
  #36  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

The case you cited has no bearing on the situation we discussed other than it was a grievance against the government.

They can do temporary transfers or secondments for critical need. To put something like that in front of the Human Rights Commission is absurd and an abuse of what the Commission is there for.

The comparison to the volunteer fire brigades is a false one. The volunteers don't buy the trucks or build the station, and in many jurisdictions the volunteers actually get paid. When they can't handle a situation, then "essential services" does kick in and professional firefighters arrive. That's a secondment too . . .


Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
Obviously you don't work for the Federal Govt. Note I said Human Rights type and there are other means within the workplace for such grievances.
Its not a transfer when you don't request it or you were hired for a specific position in a specific place.
What effect does that transfer have on other family members i.e. wives, husbands and children?
Its not as simple as saying Constable Smith you are now being transferred to such a Detachment because you speak French/English.

Now this is not the same type of case but involves a Federal employee who launched a CHRT grievance which IMHO is less of a complaint than a forced relocation
https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/chrt/do...?resultIndex=2
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Old Oct 10th 2017, 10:10 am
  #37  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

Originally Posted by carcajou
The case you cited has no bearing on the situation we discussed other than it was a grievance against the government.

They can do temporary transfers or secondments for critical need. To put something like that in front of the Human Rights Commission is absurd and an abuse of what the Commission is there for.

The comparison to the volunteer fire brigades is a false one. The volunteers don't buy the trucks or build the station, and in many jurisdictions the volunteers actually get paid. When they can't handle a situation, then "essential services" does kick in and professional firefighters arrive. That's a secondment too . . .
I think you will find I mentioned the case was somewhat different but used it to show you its not as simple as transferring or seconding people if they are not in agreement with it. Many cases have been taken to the CHRT and other Federal tribunal type boards that could be argued are an abuse of the system and frivolous in nature but sometimes they have to hear them as not hearing them would be an abuse.
I work for the Feds and know if I as bilingual could not be transferred because they are short in say Nova Scotia as my position is specific.
Also by transferring/seconding officers leaves the quandary of replacing the officers they moved and the RCMP is short of bodies. So the place where the officer was moved from their Canadian taxpaying entitled citizens are now 1 officer short because the place they moved them to was 1 short. End result the same 1 officer short.

I also tend to think the critical need i.e. non speaking French officers might not meet the definition of critical need.

If the RCMP can't provide the services then perhaps the town should look at forming their own Police Force and recruit locally.

Last edited by Former Lancastrian; Oct 10th 2017 at 10:12 am.
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Old Oct 10th 2017, 4:52 pm
  #38  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

According to the original story there is a claim that "We know that there are bilingual officers who are sent to unilingual anglophone regions," and that there is an implication that RCMP should reassign these officers to service the needs of areas like Gravelbourg.

Now there will be some officers who might like Gravelbourg, but since these positions remain unfilled we must ask ourselves why. Perhaps a reluctance to have to learn to speak a second language within two years in addition to normal duties is relevant here, but other factors might also intrude.

It is reported that "According to Census data, just five residents only speak French and not English" so on the face of it the community can be adequately served by an officer who speaks only english and this has latterly been recognised by the council so why the argument?

I suspect the main driver for this spat is "Still, the francophone community is afraid to lose ground in its fight to protect minority language rights.", ie a reluctance to accept a change in the staus quo, not with respect to the quality of policing but the politics of language and identity.

Many english speaking officers might resist postings to such areas because they understand that there may be an attitude by the local population that will not be completely cooperative in both social and professional contexts, and who would welcome that?

I agree with others that an attractive option is to actively recruit locally, then as FL suggests, '1 man down' could become 'un homme plus'.

Last edited by dave_j; Oct 10th 2017 at 4:57 pm.
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Old Oct 10th 2017, 9:24 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

Going back to the original article
For months, the town and surrounding area has only had one police officer who can respond to calls. But somebody seems to think its easy to transfer/second other officers as its critical.

According to the mayor and two councillors, Munro told elected officials that the police force is struggling with staffing shortages across Canada and that filling the bilingual positions was unlikely. So transfer/second other officers then as apparently its a simple task even though the RCMP are 6.6% short of officers all over the country.

"After trying to find someone — we tried in vain — we weren't able to find someone to fill the positions," RCMP Sgt. Joe Telus told Radio-Canada. But you could have easily transferred/seconded other officers couldn't you?

"We know that there are bilingual officers who are sent to unilingual anglophone regions," Lepage said. "It is a matter of organizing and responding to the need for what it is." Im sure they have evidence of that and have provided it to the RCMP.
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Old Oct 10th 2017, 10:05 pm
  #40  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

If they're going to Gravelbourg life will be a lot easier if they're Catholic as well. Great placement for a Quebecois recruit.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 2:30 pm
  #41  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

What a kerfuffle!

I’m intrigued, and a bit bemused. Perhaps because living in an officially unilingual province where one can request an interpreter (and sometimes have one forced upon one! - that’s another story ) has made me complacent?

I’d rather have police officers available to answer an emergency call, even if they had to wait for an interpreter to get to the details of the issue, than have to wait for one who speaks my language to respond.

I’m surprised the RCMP don’t have interpreters on call, or am I misunderstanding?
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 7:25 pm
  #42  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

Originally Posted by Shirtback
What a kerfuffle! ...
Can I have that in French please?
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 9:15 pm
  #43  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

How is a great word like kerfuffle Scottish and not Yiddish?
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Old Oct 12th 2017, 2:26 pm
  #44  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Can I have that in French please?
Originally Posted by caretaker
How is a great word like kerfuffle Scottish and not Yiddish?
I put kerfuffle in to a google translate... it came up with desordre!! So tame... I can think of so many better translations...
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Old Oct 12th 2017, 2:40 pm
  #45  
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Default Re: Unintended consequences of Bilingualism.

Originally Posted by DandNHill
I put kerfuffle in to a google translate... it came up with desordre!! So tame... I can think of so many better translations...
Isn't the obvious translation "brouhaha"?
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