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Old Sep 29th 2017, 2:25 pm   #61
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
I don't know whether you're being wilfully obtuse or you really don't understand how groundswell opinion sways political discourse. Either way, your contributions to this thread are amusing and frustrating in equal measure.

Why would you expect somebody speaking passionately - particularly an African-American who has reached the pinnacle of sporting endeavour and finds himself with a public platform to do so - about the poor treatment of visible minorities at the hands of law enforcement to be speaking with any "level of objectivity?" Of course they're not objective - they're the subject of (or reprensenting the subjects of) the inequity. That's kind of the definition of subjective, isn't it?
Well well. Whether politically correct groundswell opinion you refer to will result in any concrete improvements in the treatment of minorities, the jury is out on that one. You are starting with the assumption that crime statistics show clearly that such treatment is or largely primarily the result of bias- I admit I haven't studied the statistics closely enough to support such a conclusion. My own view, perhaps incorrect, focus should be on economics of the troubled communities + more security resources, as issues of "bias" such that may exist are hard to eliminate through legislation.

Well well. I am supposed to listen to some sports figure who often ( if not usually) without any serious training or study on an issue and as you say "subjective" and maybe not even the pretense of objective analysis, or perhaps education to even understand reports that exist ?

In any case, I don't engage in politics when I am paid to do a job.
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Old Sep 29th 2017, 2:31 pm   #62
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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Ah, so you'll be voting for higher taxation to accomplish this lofty aim, then, will you? Glad to hear it.
A dynamic plan to focus economic resources, free-up inner city businesses from burdensome and costly regulations, combined with additional public security measures would end up paying for itself- and if the government bureaucrats and politicians could actually execute such a plan, of course it would be worth paying higher taxes for a few years.

The main problem with taxes is that they are too high especially in relation to what is being delivered and how by the bureaucrats and politicians organize things.
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Old Sep 30th 2017, 3:40 pm   #63
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

The President of Puerto Rico has had a hissy fit on twitter this morning...
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 3:28 am   #64
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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The President of Puerto Rico has had a hissy fit on twitter this morning...
...well how very dare the Puerto Ricans start becoming sick.
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 10:45 am   #65
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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In any case, I don't engage in politics when I am paid to do a job.
Quite right. Got to keep the workers in their place.

Does paying someone to do a job include making them stand to attention for a national anthem (it may not even be theirs) or should it just be playing the game?

What about that infamous affair when the England football team were supposed to salute Hitler. Would it have been okay for them not to or would that be playing politics?
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 11:04 am   #66
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

The world has changed and so has its attitudes by citizens of all countries.

There is no legal requirement to stand when any national anthem is played.

Now comes the discussions on what we as citizens are supposed to do if an anthem is played at any event.

When I first moved to Canada I wasn't a citizen so if the Canadian anthem was being played I gave myself 2 choices

1. Stand up while it was played even though it wasn't my anthem
2. Sit down as its not my anthem.

I chose to stand as a minute or so of standing was no big deal and to potentially avoid a beer shower less some patriotic Canuck threw a beer at me if seeing me sitting down.

So now we are at a crossroads.

At todays NFL games just don't play the anthem. Im pretty sure there is no legal requirement for it to be played though I could be wrong.

Sure then comes the argument We caved in by not playing the anthem.
So they play it today and more solidarity is shown by the players be it taking a knee, linking arms or staying in the dressing rooms. Do the headlines then show NFL players disrespect the flag and the anthem.

Its a no win situation as both sides don't want to be seen as backing down rightly or wrongly.
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 12:53 pm   #67
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
So they play it today and more solidarity is shown by the players be it taking a knee, linking arms or staying in the dressing rooms. Do the headlines then show NFL players disrespect the flag and the anthem.

Its a no win situation as both sides don't want to be seen as backing down rightly or wrongly.
I'm not sure there are actually two sides in this issue. It's not like it's one thing or the other.

If the flag/anthem was to be disrespected that would involve ignoring it or some sort of counter protest. Like the remaining sitting you mentioned. Or dancing.

By taking the knee they are both recognising it and making their own point. Seems like a decent compromise to me.
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 1:51 pm   #68
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
The world has changed and so has its attitudes by citizens of all countries.

There is no legal requirement to stand when any national anthem is played.

Now comes the discussions on what we as citizens are supposed to do if an anthem is played at any event.

When I first moved to Canada I wasn't a citizen so if the Canadian anthem was being played I gave myself 2 choices

1. Stand up while it was played even though it wasn't my anthem
2. Sit down as its not my anthem.

I chose to stand as a minute or so of standing was no big deal and to potentially avoid a beer shower less some patriotic Canuck threw a beer at me if seeing me sitting down.

So now we are at a crossroads.

At todays NFL games just don't play the anthem. Im pretty sure there is no legal requirement for it to be played though I could be wrong.

Sure then comes the argument We caved in by not playing the anthem.
So they play it today and more solidarity is shown by the players be it taking a knee, linking arms or staying in the dressing rooms. Do the headlines then show NFL players disrespect the flag and the anthem.

Its a no win situation as both sides don't want to be seen as backing down rightly or wrongly.
I read the other day that the color guard displays and anthem and patriotic flag events are financed, in a very large part, by The Pentagon as part of their recruiting campaigns. Sort of "patriotism for pay" thing was how the article described it. Apparently it is a successful method. It also said that the whole pregame anthem thing was originally at the behest of The Pentagon and The American Legion. Very interesting. I wondered who footed the bill for these things. Not the team owners apparently.
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 4:05 pm   #69
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

I have never subscribed to the 'my country right or wrong' ideal. I have always considered attitudes to nationhood to be an artificial concept and really have found it difficult to understand why some people adopt this mania for what is a 'rag on a pole'.

It used to be that 'bending the knee' symolised a dedication and obeissance to whoever or whatever the knee was bent in front of, how times change.

Anyone with any sense of history will understand how the flags of all nations have always been tools used by those in charge to get the rest of us to do their bidding.. or else be demonised as being unpatriotic..

'Well, no change there!' I hear you say.
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 4:29 pm   #70
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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...a 'rag on a pole'...
Off to the tower!!
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 4:32 pm   #71
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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Off to the tower!!
I think he meant to say a coloured rag as most flags have several colours.
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Old Oct 1st 2017, 10:44 pm   #72
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Quite right. Got to keep the workers in their place.

Does paying someone to do a job include making them stand to attention for a national anthem (it may not even be theirs) or should it just be playing the game?

What about that infamous affair when the England football team were supposed to salute Hitler. Would it have been okay for them not to or would that be playing politics?
Quite a simple matter, if I take a job someone I have made an agreement to do that job in exchange for being paid. As far as defining what the job is and acceptable behavior, that is up to NFL.

Americans have always had a dedication to their flag, one sees the flag all over the place compared to other countries, just part of the variety of symbols and concepts of what is an "American" to try to meld together people from so many different countries. Just American custom this veneration of the flag, as other countries have their own customs.
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 1:47 am   #73
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
Quite a simple matter, if I take a job someone I have made an agreement to do that job in exchange for being paid. As far as defining what the job is and acceptable behavior, that is up to NFL.

Americans have always had a dedication to their flag, one sees the flag all over the place compared to other countries, just part of the variety of symbols and concepts of what is an "American" to try to meld together people from so many different countries. Just American custom this veneration of the flag, as other countries have their own customs.
If you are 'honouring' the flag because it's a tradition, a custom, just what you do, are you really honouring the flag or just acting out of habit?

The NFL players have put thought into how to make their protest from what I've read, and taken advice from veterans in that process. Taking a knee in my opinion does still show respect of the anthem and the flag, but is highlighting an issue also. It is far more honourable in my opinion than waving a confederate flag, or a Nazi flag. It is also more honourable (again in my opinion) than a stars and stripes bum bag, socks or undies - all readily available but no one is protesting the disrespect of the flag in that area.
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Old Oct 4th 2017, 11:51 pm   #74
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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-I admit if I wish to consider a serious sociological or political issue my first instinct isn't to seek out the opinion of some football star or entertainment person.
Different kind of footballer but...
Gerard Piqué: ‘Why can a journalist or a mechanic express themselves but not a footballer?’
Quote:
“From the age of 15 I have considered this a family: that’s one of the reasons I’m here,” Piqué said. “My commitment to the national team is maximum. I feel very proud to be here. I have thought about [leaving] and I think the best thing is to stay. Going would mean that those people have won, those who think the best solution is to whistle and insult. I’m not going to give them that satisfaction.

“There are lots of people who want me to stay. If you talk, you can reach an understanding. I am sure that if I sat down with them all, it would be different. There are people in Spain whose positions are very diverse and if you talk, you can find a solution. I’d like people to listen and think: ‘What he says is reasonable.’ And the Sergio Ramos thing is a myth. I’ve said it 15,000 times: we get on fantastically well. In fact we’re going to go into business together.

“Politics is a drag, but why shouldn’t I express myself? I understand those players who don’t want to say anything. We’re footballers but we’re people too. Why can a journalist or a mechanic express themselves but not a footballer?”
Just another thicko who should get on with playing football?
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