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Old Sep 27th 2017, 2:00 pm   #46
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
Im pretty sure if this was happening in the UK how many in the UK would be just waiting for a sports personality such as Wayne Rooney to have an intellectual take on this and listen to what he has to say
Wayne Rooney - intellectual !!!! now there is an oxymoron. Honestly of all the english players of the last 20 - 30 years who would you consider to have any well thought out opinions on anything outside the game itself? Graeme Le Saux, Steve McManaman, after that it drops off pretty fast.
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 2:00 pm   #47
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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With statistics like this it's going to be an up hill struggle for non whites in USA

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, blacks accounted for 39.4% of the prison and jail population in 2009, while non-Hispanic whites were 34.2%, and Hispanics (of any race) 20.6%. The incarceration rate of black males was over six times higher than that of white males, with a rate of 4,749 per 100,000 US residents.
If the African American poverty rate is say 27%, and that of whites 9%, would not this imply that a greater percentage of blacks would be incarcerated ( if one accepts poverty is a partial determinant of the level of crime in a community ?). Whether from prejudice or from economic situation, either way how to solve or improve the situation ?. I hardly think protest form sports figures will do much in the current environment.
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 2:06 pm   #48
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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If the African American poverty rate is say 27%, and that of whites 9%, would not this imply that a greater percentage of blacks would be incarcerated ( if one accepts poverty is a partial determinant of the level of crime in a community ?). Whether from prejudice or from economic situation, either way how to solve or improve the situation ?. I hardly think protest form sports figures will do much in the current environment.
And yet, here you are talking about it as a pretty direct result of those sports people having exercised their First Amendment rights to protest. I'd say that's a reasonable indication that the protest is working, wouldn't you?
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 2:14 pm   #49
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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And yet, here you are talking about it as a pretty direct result of those sports people having exercised their First Amendment rights to protest. I'd say that's a reasonable indication that the protest is working, wouldn't you?
Not at all- what practical benefit has been derived or will be derived from such protests ? I realize it might make liberals feel good at striking a blow for their ideology, but the problems that create this situation whereby millions are incarcerated hardly being solved.
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 2:21 pm   #50
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I wonder who will speak out up here????
A lot of CFL players.
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 3:07 pm   #51
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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Not at all- what practical benefit has been derived or will be derived from such protests ? I realize it might make liberals feel good at striking a blow for their ideology, but the problems that create this situation whereby millions are incarcerated hardly being solved.
Because, in the words of several of the sports people you're so quick to dismiss, it has brought an "uncomfortable conversation" to the forefront of public discussion. That is a precursor to change, just as much as are the studies and analyses that you seem to set so much store by. Without people making a fuss, nothing will be done. Achieving change through protest is kind of fundamental to the entire existence of the US, isn't it?

Here's a piece from the BBC, with two "sports personalities" discussing the issue in terms that are not only considered and thoughtful, but relevant too. Are you going to try and suggest that these two do not have both the platform and the position in society to voice their comments and have them heard?

NFL protests: Osi Umenyiora says Donald Trump 'disrespecting the US flag' - BBC Sport
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 3:29 pm   #52
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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Not at all- what practical benefit has been derived or will be derived from such protests ?
Unfortunately you're correct that this protest will very likely have absolutely no impact on how law enforcement view coloured people, attitudes don't change overnight and the culture is self supporting.

But what else can they do? They have a short window of opportunity before the story fades from media attention. If Trump had let it drop then it would, even now, have become a story with little popular interest.

I applaud their stand but it'll take an earthquake like change in attitudes to make any real difference. As Laozi, the chinese philosopher, once said 'a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step'. I think we are a few miles into the journey but the going's uphill and in a difficult country.
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 4:24 pm   #53
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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...protest will very likely have absolutely no impact on how law enforcement view coloured people, attitudes don't change overnight and the culture is self supporting...
I don't doubt it will be slow but if such actions and other protests were never taken what would happen?

This report from the Chicago Tribune while headed Number of fatal shootings by police nearly identical to last year
does actually say fatal shootings of unarmed people have declined, continuing a trend over the past two years. Shooting unarmed people is probably the part that's most concerning and there's been an improvement.

The report also says that while black people are disproportionately victims their share has dropped slightly: from 32 percent of all unarmed killings during the first six months of last year to 26 percent so far this year.

A fall from 32% to 26% looks more than a slight drop to me, but if you're black, both of these stats appear an improvement.

With officers wearing bodycams it's more difficult to get away with things compared to previously.

Of course it would be handy if there weren't so many incidents where they weren't turned on or "malfunctioned" but I think there are some reasons to be a little more optimistic.
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 6:55 pm   #54
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Who would be a copper these days? Thanks but no thanks!
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 6:57 pm   #55
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Because, in the words of several of the sports people you're so quick to dismiss, it has brought an "uncomfortable conversation" to the forefront of public discussion. That is a precursor to change, just as much as are the studies and analyses that you seem to set so much store by. Without people making a fuss, nothing will be done. Achieving change through protest is kind of fundamental to the entire existence of the US, isn't it?

Here's a piece from the BBC, with two "sports personalities" discussing the issue in terms that are not only considered and thoughtful, but relevant too. Are you going to try and suggest that these two do not have both the platform and the position in society to voice their comments and have them heard?

NFL protests: Osi Umenyiora says Donald Trump 'disrespecting the US flag' - BBC Sport

-I admit if I wish to consider a serious sociological or political issue my first instinct isn't to seek out the opinion of some football start or entertainment person, in particular when the level of objectivity doesn't strike me as too high.
- As far as "studies" I would assume it is not unreasonable that for such a serious subject to seek out serious studies and statistics on the issue.
- Whether this carry-on currently occurring will help promote serious and effective policy changes I do not know, hopefully some beneficial result will occur instead of just sound-bite san divisiveness.
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 7:00 pm   #56
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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Unfortunately you're correct that this protest will very likely have absolutely no impact on how law enforcement view coloured people, attitudes don't change overnight and the culture is self supporting.

But what else can they do? They have a short window of opportunity before the story fades from media attention. If Trump had let it drop then it would, even now, have become a story with little popular interest.

I applaud their stand but it'll take an earthquake like change in attitudes to make any real difference. As Laozi, the chinese philosopher, once said 'a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step'. I think we are a few miles into the journey but the going's uphill and in a difficult country.
I believe, perhaps incorrectly, that improving the economic status and power of the inner city poor might do more in the long run to change perceptions and actions based on current perceptions than anything else.
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 7:16 pm   #57
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
-I admit if I wish to consider a serious sociological or political issue my first instinct isn't to seek out the opinion of some football start or entertainment person, in particular when the level of objectivity doesn't strike me as too high.
- As far as "studies" I would assume it is not unreasonable that for such a serious subject to seek out serious studies and statistics on the issue.
- Whether this carry-on currently occurring will help promote serious and effective policy changes I do not know, hopefully some beneficial result will occur instead of just sound-bite san divisiveness.
I don't know whether you're being wilfully obtuse or you really don't understand how groundswell opinion sways political discourse. Either way, your contributions to this thread are amusing and frustrating in equal measure.

Why would you expect somebody speaking passionately - particularly an African-American who has reached the pinnacle of sporting endeavour and finds himself with a public platform to do so - about the poor treatment of visible minorities at the hands of law enforcement to be speaking with any "level of objectivity?" Of course they're not objective - they're the subject of (or reprensenting the subjects of) the inequity. That's kind of the definition of subjective, isn't it?
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 7:17 pm   #58
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I believe, perhaps incorrectly, that improving the economic status and power of the inner city poor might do more in the long run to change perceptions and actions based on current perceptions than anything else.
Ah, so you'll be voting for higher taxation to accomplish this lofty aim, then, will you? Glad to hear it.
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 7:25 pm   #59
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I believe, perhaps incorrectly, that improving the economic status and power of the inner city poor might do more in the long run to change perceptions and actions based on current perceptions than anything else.
There's merit in that but it dodges a key question. Why are the inner city poor primarily Black?
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Old Sep 27th 2017, 7:32 pm   #60
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Ah, so you'll be voting for higher taxation to accomplish this lofty aim, then, will you? Glad to hear it.
That's what it takes in the long run, and the results aren't immediate, for the most part. Empowerment and improvement, breaking destructive cycles and reinforcing positive ones. Pay to fix the broken social connections and fund trades training and basic lifeskills and education now and not pay as much for welfare and corrections in the future.
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