Jingsamichty

Saw this story on the BBC, about UEFA changing the rules to allow referees to suspend/abandon a professional game if the crowd are making racist chants.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...pe/8010605.stm

Now I'm not defending racism, but is this really necessary? And why just racism?

Imagine, if you will, the following typical jaunty football chant...

"OI, SMITH, YOU'RE A F@CKIN' USELESS [blank] B@$T@RD!!!!"

(i) FAT is acceptable
(ii) GINGER is acceptable
(iii) GAY is acceptable
(iv) PAEDOPHILE is acceptable
(v) MUSLIM is acceptable
(vi) CRIPPLE is acceptable
(vii) GYPPO or PIKEY is acceptable
(viii) SPASTIC is acceptable

but he'll apparently have a breakdown if you say ENGLISH or the like. That's such a terrible insult that the game needs to be abandoned. And I rather think that the referee and his assistants have more important things to be doing that monitoring crowd chants and grading the offensiveness of the chant.

The lunatics are definitely running the asylum.

Oakvillian

I know (hope) you're just trying to get a bite, so I'll take first go. I don't really think that's what they're getting at. There's nothing very offensive about "English" - unless you happen to be Scottish or Welsh and would hate to be falsely accused of Englishness, I suppose. If the adjective was "black" (or, worse, 'the "n" word'), or Phil-the-Greek style "slitty-eyed" there's more likely to be offense taken than if it was "Cameroonian" or "Korean" or whatever. Racism is about victimisation on account of the colour of your skin or the set of your features, not on account of your national allegiance.

Novocastrian

You're up late Oak. Did you have to stay up to feed the troll tonight?

rae

while i am sure the intention is good and i certainly welcome any attempts to get rid of these idiots out of the crowd, i worry this may simply be used as an attempt to abandon games that are going drastically wrong for whichever team it may be. tell me someone considered this as a possibility.

Oakvillian

I'm procrastinating. A ton of work to do, stupid web filtering software on shiny new work laptop that blocks pretty much any worthwhile procrastination venue except here...

Novocastrian

Trying that again.

You can get help here

Edit: Woohoo it worked this time!

Edit again: No it effing didn't.

3rd edit: Sooner or later.. Christ that was a struggle.

Jingsamichty

I'm certainly not trying to get a bite.

You made my point exactly... so if England were playing Pakistan would it be racism if someone shouted "Paki B******"?

Is it a referee's job to decide that "Korean *****" is okay, but "slitty-eyed ****" is not? I don't think so. It IS his job to control that sort of behaviour from the players, but not the crowd. And the referee has to be in sole sporting charge of the game, or the decision to abandon. Otherwise, as Rae suggests, we could find games being deliberately manipulated by off-field actions.

Oakvillian

I don't see how off-field action could be used to manipulate the result. I presume if a game is abandoned because of racist chanting from so-called supporters, that team would forfeit the game and points would be awarded to their opponents. Since football crowds can't be trusted to get on with each other, they're segregated, so the ref knows exactly whose supporters are where in the ground. He'd know who was abusing which players. If a team is losing, there'd be no benefit to their supporters forfeiting the game by shouting abuse - they'd not be gaining any points either way. If a team is winning, supporters shouting racist abuse would rob their team of points by forfeiting the game - if some sections of the crowd are determined to hurl abuse, the club would soon see it's in its interests to identify and bar them, if it starts to cost them points through the season. Seems a reasonable idea to me, all told.

DaveLovesDee

What Oakvillian said

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

What he said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

rae

i never saw the off the field bit, i assumed it was referring to chants from the crowd, in the stadium, while the game was in play.

if you are 10-0 at half time i would say its a pretty lost cause, so why not do what you want anyway.

fans intermingle with other fans all the time due to touting, i was forever turfing away supporters out of areas they were not welcome for 10yrs at old trafford.

there is absolutely no way when you are on the pitch with 76,000 fans baying at you, that you could pinpoint exactly where a specific chant has come from. take that to FA arbitration and you would lose.

like i say, i think the heart is in the right place, but its unworkable.

geo4

Liverpool would have invoked this last night late on.

Oakvillian

so did I. Off-field = in the stands.
That's my point - it's unlikely to affect the result. If the losing side shouts abuse, they forfeit a game they were losing anyway. If the winning side's supporters are guilty, it's in the club's interest to identify and ban those responsible. If abusive chants are coming from the winning side's section of the ground, they're hardly fans worthy of the name if they know they'll get the game forfeited and lose their team 3 certain points. Win-win, I'd have thought.
I don't think anyone's suggesting that a single plonker shouting abuse from the stand is going to get picked out by the ref. But are you trying to tell me that enough people are in the "wrong" end that they would be able to make themselves heard, to the extent of distinguishing the words, over the other 76,000?
I disagree - I think it has a chance of success if the sanctions are appropriate (e.g. game forfeits, points docked etc) and the clubs buy in to the idea - I mean really buy in, not just pay lip service - that racism has no place in a football ground. But that's just my opinion, and I'm not a die-hard (or even a die-easy, frankly) footie fan.

hitchw

i think that as someone else said, this idea has roots in the right place, but i feel it would be an impossiblity to monitor! even home supporters shout racist abuse at their players when they cock up so how would you control that? the way things are in this world unfortunately racism will never be ground to a halt and i just dont think that it would be fair to penalise the majority of supporters in the stands that have forked out their hard earned cash for a ticket just because of the actions of a group of bigots and ar**holes shouting dated abuse! think more importantly the refs should target divers like Drogba...now, is that racist?

DaveLovesDee

Whilst I accept, and even participate in giving our own players some vocal commentary when they're playing badly, I don't consider the use of racial words or phrases to be anything other than ignorance of the English language, and unacceptable in any circumstance.

There are many other ways to insult people without resorting to referring to peoples skin colour or religion.

Jingsamichty

The time for the football authorities to stand up and sort out racism in football was 30 years ago.

Look at any top-level team now and show me how black/brown/yellow/green players are discriminated against? The football industry is colour-blind.

Idiot fans are idiot fans. They call the referee a blind ****, they call a player they don't like a fat **** or perhaps a black *****. Either way, the player they're abusing is hardly likely to lose sleep over it. Why not ban people calling some a ******, i.e. ban swearing? It's not tolerated on most pitches, why not in the stands?

It's just another politically-correct gesture that is going to be nigh-on impossible to police, but which the UEFA blazers think makes them look brave.