if the scots go, do you care?
#61
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
That link is a laughably one-sided pile of drivel. Scotland has a "rich and diverse economy" - roughly on a par with that of Finland or the Philippines. When politically-driven inward investment from other parts of the UK is taken out of the equation, one suspects it will shrink a bit.
And the tax burden stuff fails, as ever, to factor in the costs that Scotland would incur if it were solely responsible for its own foreign affairs, defence, treasury, etc etc. The overheads of running at least three more major spending departments in Edinburgh - not to mention the additional workload on departments of health, local government, home affairs, infrastructure and transportation - would quickly eat up that supposed dividend. Which Scottish Government department currently deals with air traffic control, or medical device licensing, or customs/border control, or fiscal policy (no, hang on, they're not planning on having one of those...)?
There are some splendidly arbitrary baselines used in some of the graphs, too. Why choose 1999=100 for tax receipts but 1980=100 for public sector surplus? And the claim that "Scotland has 25% of Europe's wind energy potential" is so ridiculous it's beyond funny and out the other side. Turns out that claim is based on a submission made by a renewable energy lobbying body to a parliamentary enquiry in 2001. Hmmm.
As I said earlier, I don't have a strong ideologically-based opinion for or against independence. But from a purely pragmatic viewpoint, there is a pretty questionable upside and all sorts of potential pitfalls that are being swept under the rug.
And the tax burden stuff fails, as ever, to factor in the costs that Scotland would incur if it were solely responsible for its own foreign affairs, defence, treasury, etc etc. The overheads of running at least three more major spending departments in Edinburgh - not to mention the additional workload on departments of health, local government, home affairs, infrastructure and transportation - would quickly eat up that supposed dividend. Which Scottish Government department currently deals with air traffic control, or medical device licensing, or customs/border control, or fiscal policy (no, hang on, they're not planning on having one of those...)?
There are some splendidly arbitrary baselines used in some of the graphs, too. Why choose 1999=100 for tax receipts but 1980=100 for public sector surplus? And the claim that "Scotland has 25% of Europe's wind energy potential" is so ridiculous it's beyond funny and out the other side. Turns out that claim is based on a submission made by a renewable energy lobbying body to a parliamentary enquiry in 2001. Hmmm.
As I said earlier, I don't have a strong ideologically-based opinion for or against independence. But from a purely pragmatic viewpoint, there is a pretty questionable upside and all sorts of potential pitfalls that are being swept under the rug.
#62
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Long-winded appeals to the emotional "this is my country and it should be independent just because" brigade, I suspect. I watched the first thirty seconds of the first one - images of oil platforms, disenfranchised youths in urban wastelands, Thatcher looking smug; commentary on Gaddafi's Libyan coup and the Yom Kippur war and how Scottish oil saved the world. Very dispassionate and carefully argued, I'm sure. Not.
#63
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Thats the usual response I get but I do believe Scotland will better off independent.Yes the article is very pro-YES but on the other hand what are the great propects of staying the union? More cuts to services on the way of 25 billion pounds ,billions wasted on replacing Trident which will never be used,more years of tory mis-mangement which Scotland never votes for.I dont see any rosy picture for staying in union,its pretty much the same old same.
In case you hadn't noticed, the smaller, poorer economies around the periphery of the European Union haven't exactly been having a lovely time of it. I bet if you offered a Greek, an Italian or a Spaniard cuts of "only" 25 billion they'd leap at the chance. PIIGS becomes PIIGSS in a few years?
What is it, specifically, that has been mis-managed by one party which another has not, or would not, mis-manage equally badly? I don't seem to recall that it was all so much better under Blair or Brown for the dozen years up to 2010.
If staying in the union doesn't present a rosy picture, think of the potentially utterly disastrous consequences of leaving it. Too much of the promised "economic miracle" which will make Scotland a global powerhouse, is based upon seriously shaky assumptions about oil revenues and efficient government. A great deal of what Scotland enjoys today is, of course, of its own making - but it has sure as Hell been helped along by being tied to an economy ten times its size (how many times have there been complaints on this board about how Canadian consumers lose out in comparison with those in our 10-times-bigger southern neighbour? Distribution costs up due to lower population density, overheads spread over a smaller customer base, etc etc etc...).
I have never, yet, heard a pro-independence supporter provide a well reasoned argument in defence of their position. I'd love to read one which is supportable through more than an emotional appeal to nationalist instinct.
#65
limey party pooper
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,982
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Has there been any discussion of what the immigration status would be for Scots living in England? Or English/Welsh or Norn Irish living in Scotland? I'm thinking probably the same for Republic of Ireland citzens in the UK, but what about in Scotland?
#66
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
I'd imagine everyone born beforehand carries on as normal. Anyone born after would be a Scottish citizen. The "by descent" laws would probably make a non-issue for many decades.
#67
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Thats the usual response I get but I do believe Scotland will better off independent.Yes the article is very pro-YES but on the other hand what are the great propects of staying the union? More cuts to services on the way of 25 billion pounds ,billions wasted on replacing Trident which will never be used,more years of tory mis-mangement which Scotland never votes for.I dont see any rosy picture for staying in union,its pretty much the same old same.
English shipyard workers in Barrow-in-Furness are, of course, delighted that the Trident replacement is likely to go ahead. The BAE yard there will very likely win the contract for the Vanguard-replacement submarines. If Scotland gains independence, the inhabitants of Helensburgh currently employed at Faslane will no doubt be looking for new jobs. That will probably also please the potential civilian employees of the Naval base at Plymouth Devonport, first in line to take up the slack.
Last edited by Oakvillian; Feb 6th 2014 at 8:31 pm.
#68
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
I'm not too fussed about whether or not they vote for independence. But if they do vote for it, independence should mean independence. No riding on the back of joint services/govt. departments like the DVLA etc. They can get their own!
London should also only include English/Welsh/NI MP's on issues that only affect England/Wales/NI.
London should also only include English/Welsh/NI MP's on issues that only affect England/Wales/NI.
#69
Banned
Joined: Dec 2010
Location: Durham Region Extension
Posts: 3,342
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
#70
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
I don't understand why anyone British is "not fussed" about potential independence? It's one thing to accept that Scotland has a right to self determination, quite another to think that whatever they decide doesn't matter. Whether you have a connection with Scotland or not, if it separates that's a massive impact on both economies and political systems. Unless you have no interest in those topics at all (and for many expat Brits that would be understandable) then it's rather an important topic in the country's history.
#71
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
This genuinely intrigues me. What is it that makes you believe Scotland would be better off independent? I mean really, rationally better off, not just "rid of those bloody Sassenachs" better off?
In case you hadn't noticed, the smaller, poorer economies around the periphery of the European Union haven't exactly been having a lovely time of it. I bet if you offered a Greek, an Italian or a Spaniard cuts of "only" 25 billion they'd leap at the chance. PIIGS becomes PIIGSS in a few years?
What is it, specifically, that has been mis-managed by one party which another has not, or would not, mis-manage equally badly? I don't seem to recall that it was all so much better under Blair or Brown for the dozen years up to 2010.
If staying in the union doesn't present a rosy picture, think of the potentially utterly disastrous consequences of leaving it. Too much of the promised "economic miracle" which will make Scotland a global powerhouse, is based upon seriously shaky assumptions about oil revenues and efficient government. A great deal of what Scotland enjoys today is, of course, of its own making - but it has sure as Hell been helped along by being tied to an economy ten times its size (how many times have there been complaints on this board about how Canadian consumers lose out in comparison with those in our 10-times-bigger southern neighbour? Distribution costs up due to lower population density, overheads spread over a smaller customer base, etc etc etc...).
I have never, yet, heard a pro-independence supporter provide a well reasoned argument in defence of their position. I'd love to read one which is supportable through more than an emotional appeal to nationalist instinct.
In case you hadn't noticed, the smaller, poorer economies around the periphery of the European Union haven't exactly been having a lovely time of it. I bet if you offered a Greek, an Italian or a Spaniard cuts of "only" 25 billion they'd leap at the chance. PIIGS becomes PIIGSS in a few years?
What is it, specifically, that has been mis-managed by one party which another has not, or would not, mis-manage equally badly? I don't seem to recall that it was all so much better under Blair or Brown for the dozen years up to 2010.
If staying in the union doesn't present a rosy picture, think of the potentially utterly disastrous consequences of leaving it. Too much of the promised "economic miracle" which will make Scotland a global powerhouse, is based upon seriously shaky assumptions about oil revenues and efficient government. A great deal of what Scotland enjoys today is, of course, of its own making - but it has sure as Hell been helped along by being tied to an economy ten times its size (how many times have there been complaints on this board about how Canadian consumers lose out in comparison with those in our 10-times-bigger southern neighbour? Distribution costs up due to lower population density, overheads spread over a smaller customer base, etc etc etc...).
I have never, yet, heard a pro-independence supporter provide a well reasoned argument in defence of their position. I'd love to read one which is supportable through more than an emotional appeal to nationalist instinct.
Scotland has a wealth of resources but we must be the only oil producing country in the world and still have child poverty(1in 5),we have the worst health in Europe,heart disease,alcoholism(8th in the world)and the highest drug related deaths in Europe ,7 times higher.Glasgow has the highest mortalitly rate in UK 15% higher.I dont care about Greece or Spain or Itlay but I do care about Scotland and I know where those cuts are going to be aimed at and hit the hardest.So is it really "better together"?
As for if it can be economically sustainable ,you just need to look at Norway the 4th wealthiest country in the world per capita an almost identical oil producing country to Scotland .
Its nothing to do with anti-englishness or sassenachs,I lived and worked in England for 11yrs so you could say I have seen the 2 sides of the fence.
#72
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Scotland has a wealth of resources but we must be the only oil producing country in the world and still have child poverty(1in 5),we have the worst health in Europe,heart disease,alcoholism(8th in the world)and the highest drug related deaths in Europe ,7 times higher.Glasgow has the highest mortalitly rate in UK 15% higher.
#73
limey party pooper
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,982
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Well for a start we wouldnt be governed by a tory government that we dont vote for ,only 1 tory MP in Scotland (zero at the '99 elections).The London parliament is broken,the politics dont work for Scotland,the results of the UK general elections are determined by the Midlands and S.England.So we can have a government with full powers that know what its people want ,may it be SNP or Labour and not a bunch of snooty Eton toffs that have absolutley nothing in common with Scotland.
Scotland has a wealth of resources but we must be the only oil producing country in the world and still have child poverty(1in 5),we have the worst health in Europe,heart disease,alcoholism(8th in the world)and the highest drug related deaths in Europe ,7 times higher.Glasgow has the highest mortalitly rate in UK 15% higher.I dont care about Greece or Spain or Itlay but I do care about Scotland and I know where those cuts are going to be aimed at and hit the hardest.So is it really "better together"?
As for if it can be economically sustainable ,you just need to look at Norway the 4th wealthiest country in the world per capita an almost identical oil producing country to Scotland .
Its nothing to do with anti-englishness or sassenachs,I lived and worked in England for 11yrs so you could say I have seen the 2 sides of the fence.
Scotland has a wealth of resources but we must be the only oil producing country in the world and still have child poverty(1in 5),we have the worst health in Europe,heart disease,alcoholism(8th in the world)and the highest drug related deaths in Europe ,7 times higher.Glasgow has the highest mortalitly rate in UK 15% higher.I dont care about Greece or Spain or Itlay but I do care about Scotland and I know where those cuts are going to be aimed at and hit the hardest.So is it really "better together"?
As for if it can be economically sustainable ,you just need to look at Norway the 4th wealthiest country in the world per capita an almost identical oil producing country to Scotland .
Its nothing to do with anti-englishness or sassenachs,I lived and worked in England for 11yrs so you could say I have seen the 2 sides of the fence.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/publ...aled-1-3197170
#74
Banned
Joined: Dec 2010
Location: Durham Region Extension
Posts: 3,342
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
It's besides the point...that's like saying how would independence help South Africa from Apartheid, or how did independence help all those 3rd world countries that got their independence from the GB
#75
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Well for a start we wouldnt be governed by a tory government that we dont vote for ,only 1 tory MP in Scotland (zero at the '99 elections).The London parliament is broken,the politics dont work for Scotland,the results of the UK general elections are determined by the Midlands and S.England.So we can have a government with full powers that know what its people want ,may it be SNP or Labour and not a bunch of snooty Eton toffs that have absolutley nothing in common with Scotland.
Perhaps they should separate?
Scotland has a wealth of resources but we must be the only oil producing country in the world and still have child poverty(1in 5),we have the worst health in Europe,heart disease,alcoholism(8th in the world)and the highest drug related deaths in Europe ,7 times higher.Glasgow has the highest mortalitly rate in UK 15% higher.I dont care about Greece or Spain or Itlay but I do care about Scotland and I know where those cuts are going to be aimed at and hit the hardest.So is it really "better together"?
As for if it can be economically sustainable ,you just need to look at Norway the 4th wealthiest country in the world per capita an almost identical oil producing country to Scotland .
Its nothing to do with anti-englishness or sassenachs,I lived and worked in England for 11yrs so you could say I have seen the 2 sides of the fence.