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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:11 pm   #16
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by Jingsamichty View Post
I know that. I'm not 100% convinced that a "transactional" encounter (I'll give you a leg up in the business if you ...err... scratch my back) counts as assault.

Despicable, but not criminal?
Rape, and unwanted sexual advances/touching is harassment and criminal assault.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...-their-stories
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:13 pm   #17
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by mikelincs View Post
Because the publicity was beginning to hit the company, it's a bit like the JS phenomenon in the UK, getting away with it for years because of who he is, then someone has the guts to speak out, and then others also come out from hiding. It seems as though he liked to have informal interviews in his hotel suite, excuse himself to use the bathroom then return wearing only a robe which wasn't fastened. They should have done what my wife did when she was confronted by a flasher, he just opened his coat, so she said,'sorry, I roll my own' , he ran off.
Not to say your wife isn't cool, but not sure it's comparable.

I think the difference here is the clear power imbalance, each scenario was similar: the woman was "baited" or "procured", and she would think it is a professional setting/context - then faced with .... - anyway just read the New Yorker mag.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:13 pm   #18
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
"You'll never work in this industry again unless you give me a blow-job now" is a bit more than a "transactional encounter." Consent gained under such duress is not consent: sexual acts performed under such false consent are assaults.
Exactly.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:15 pm   #19
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd View Post
Well if its all true...which seems likely, I hope he gets what coming to him. Anyone who has such extreme arrogance and shows such contempt for women, deserves to come crashing down with a big thump.

Hopefully he will "never work in that town again".
Seems to be the case.

He was grovelling to studio agents/CEOs before he got fired. If you google it the headlines are he "grovelled" for his job.

None backed him up

& his wife is leaving him
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:16 pm   #20
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
"You'll never work in this industry again unless you give me a blow-job now" is a bit more than a "transactional encounter." Consent gained under such duress is not consent: sexual acts performed under such false consent are assaults.
I agree that if there were threats, that would be different. But I'm sure Hollywood is rife with encounters that aren't so explicitly threatening, more along the lines of what I said, "I can help you in this business, would you like to come back to my room to see how we can help each other..."

For every creep like Weinstein, there is someone on the other end who will do whatever it takes to get ahead. Not defending him at all by the way, but I think it's wrong to go after him like he's the bad apple in a barrel... the whole barrel stinks.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:19 pm   #21
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Hmm. Think we need our learned friend AC to comment on this...!
The issue there would be: whether the "duress" negated the "consent."

I am, however, mindful of the Ghomeshi and Cosby trials and the fact that he hasn't actually be charged with anything yet. One would assume that, if there was such a mountain of evidence against him, he would have at least been questioned by the police.

I shook my head when Ms. Aldred appeared on TV the other day.

If he has done all that he is alleged to have done, he deserves everything that is coming his way. But I am also mindful of the fact that some crying wolf can wreck someone's life, particularly in the social media sphere, without ever having to suffer consequences if the accusations are unfounded.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:30 pm   #22
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by jerryhung View Post
Rape, and unwanted sexual advances/touching is harassment and criminal assault.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...-their-stories
That's a bit more shocking than I thought.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:31 pm   #23
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by Jingsamichty View Post
I agree that if there were threats, that would be different. But I'm sure Hollywood is rife with encounters that aren't so explicitly threatening, more along the lines of what I said, "I can help you in this business, would you like to come back to my room to see how we can help each other..."

For every creep like Weinstein, there is someone on the other end who will do whatever it takes to get ahead. Not defending him at all by the way, but I think it's wrong to go after him like he's the bad apple in a barrel... the whole barrel stinks.
Did you even read the reports, or are you just a sex assault defender? Every OJ has his lawyer I guess. Bizarre.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:35 pm   #24
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by Shard View Post
That's a bit more shocking than I thought.
Yes. The accusations are piling up, and it's no small issue anymore. It's assault, rape, coercion.

Interesting how the Manhattan DA, who received $ from Weinstein, decided not to prosecute. The fact is it shows a system of corruption or people who look after themselves. Is this point so different in any part of society? I think we have to ask ourselves that question.

Here is another take on why the power imbalance was frightening from the WaPo:

It wasn’t just the complicit silence around Harvey Weinstein’s sexual harassment that made it so dangerous.

It was the opposite of silence, too.

It was the public humiliation that could be used to retaliate against alleged victims who spoke out.

Weinstein used the media like a bludgeon to keep his alleged victims in line, by many accounts. He did it skillfully — and with plenty of help.



<<<SNIP>>>

http://wapo.st/2i1En4U?tid=ss_mail&u...=.cdca233c46b2

You have to give it to Ashley Judd and the others who came out first - very brave of them.

Colin Firth just gave a statement yesterday, in effect, saying that Weinstein is a powerful and frightening man, and Ben Affleck has been outed lying i.e. he knew about it but never did anything and is now making the obligatory "responsible" remarks.

As much as it's interesting watching Hollywood's orb, I can't see how this is different to any part of society i.e. cowards and self beneficiaries looking out for their own and too scared to take down the powerful/corrupt

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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:37 pm   #25
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

From the New Yorker article, a female exec tries to do the right thing now, despite the risk of losing hundreds of thousands of dollars...

Several of the former executives and assistants in this story said that they had received calls from Weinstein in which he attempted to determine if they had talked to me or warned them not to. These employees continued to participate in the article partly because they felt there was a growing culture of accountability, embodied in the relatively recent disclosures about high-profile men like Cosby and Ailes. “I think a lot of us had thought—and hoped—over the years that it would come out sooner,” the former executive who was aware of the two legal settlements in London told me. “But I think now is the right time, in this current climate, for the truth.”

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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:39 pm   #26
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by jerryhung View Post
Did you even read the reports, or are you just a sex assault defender? Every OJ has his lawyer I guess. Bizarre.
No one is a sex assault defender. Some, however, question whether what happened was a assault or consensual. To some extent, this type of scenario goes with the Hollywood territory, and there are many claims that it was common inside knowledge. Having said that, and read the NY article you posted, Weinstein seems to have been so systematic and persistent in his behaviour it seems likely that non-consensual activity took place on many occasions.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:41 pm   #27
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by Shard View Post
No one is a sex assault defender. Some, however, question whether what happened was a assault or consensual. To some extent, this type of scenario goes with the Hollywood territory, and there are many claims that it was common inside knowledge. Having said that, and read the NY article you posted, Weinstein seems to have been so systematic and persistent in his behaviour it seems likely that non-consensual activity took place on many occasions.
That's the point - just because it happened in Hollywood doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

It's not like you say, oh it's so common that we forget the rules of engagement/decency

As to sex assault, given you'd actually read the New Yorker article, I'm surprised you didn't see it for what it is.

Men (some) are idiots.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:43 pm   #28
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Did you even read the reports, or are you just a sex assault defender? Every OJ has his lawyer I guess. Bizarre.
Virtually every sensible jurisdiction in the world relies upon, "Innocent until proven guilty." which, I believe, is sensible. If it wasn't, you would be guilty simply because someone accuses you. That should frighten you.

Whether you like it or not, OJ was not guilty.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 6:49 pm   #29
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by jerryhung View Post
That's the point - just because it happened in Hollywood doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

It's not like you say, oh it's so common that we forget the rules of engagement/decency

As to sex assault, given you'd actually read the New Yorker article, I'm surprised you didn't see it for what it is.

Men (some) are idiots.
Who knows what it is? You'd need a trial for that. If the industry is known for this kind of behaviour, people in it are to some extent complicit. Like the actress who complained she felt sexually obligated because he was paying for her nanny, well, hello, there are other options. It's more of a grey area than you make out.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 7:17 pm   #30
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Who knows what it is? You'd need a trial for that. If the industry is known for this kind of behaviour, people in it are to some extent complicit. Like the actress who complained she felt sexually obligated because he was paying for her nanny, well, hello, there are other options. It's more of a grey area than you make out.
I don't know how you can argue this. A man in a position of power - who effectively, in this case, holds a veto over a woman's career - is obligated not to abuse that power for his own sexual gratification. Even if there may have been occasions when that abuse of power did not constitute a crime by the strict letter of the law, you seem to be saying that "they all do that" is a reasonable excuse for inexcusable behaviour.

What other options, pray tell, were available to the actress you mention? Should she have sacked her nanny? Should she have turned down a role? Should she have wrecked her career? Should she have given up in disgust and waited tables and lived off the tips for the rest of her life? That's what you seem to be advocating - that the little woman should just curl up and do whatever she's told to by the big swinging dick.

Even if what Weinstein did did not always cross the line into illegality, I hope there will now be sufficient evidence to convict him based on the times that it did.
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