Harvey Weinstein
Nov 2nd 2017, 6:06 pm
#136
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Posts: 4,104
Re: Harvey Weinstein
Weinstein's toast. But there are probably a thousand more Weinsteins in Hollywood who still have the power to keep themselves out of the news.
The whole swamp needs draining, not just a few ageing alligators who've lost most of their teeth.
The whole swamp needs draining, not just a few ageing alligators who've lost most of their teeth.
Nov 2nd 2017, 6:14 pm
#137
Yo
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,474
Re: Harvey Weinstein
Weinstein was the inflexion point, surely? Can't see Hollywood going back to its old ways
Nov 2nd 2017, 6:30 pm
#138
limey party pooper
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,982
Re: Harvey Weinstein
So what? I wasn't talking about the State, I was talking about the person accusing the accused. Please continue to argue with yourself.
I would call them the person assaulted, the owner of the property.
I'd respectfully suggest that, in most cases, the issue is: was it rape? Rarely is it to determine who committed the rape as it was it X, or Y? I will defer to your greater knowledge if it persuade you to leave this alone.
It is exactly the same reason why the person assaulted is rarely referred to as the victim. Partly, because it is prejudicial, and partly because they don't necessarily see themselves as a victim.
Once again, you are attempting to put words into my mouth, or text. I suggest you choose what you wish to call them, and allow me to do likewise.
I would call them the person assaulted, the owner of the property.
I'd respectfully suggest that, in most cases, the issue is: was it rape? Rarely is it to determine who committed the rape as it was it X, or Y? I will defer to your greater knowledge if it persuade you to leave this alone.
It is exactly the same reason why the person assaulted is rarely referred to as the victim. Partly, because it is prejudicial, and partly because they don't necessarily see themselves as a victim.
Once again, you are attempting to put words into my mouth, or text. I suggest you choose what you wish to call them, and allow me to do likewise.
You could call the woman raped the owner of the vagina but you chose to call her the accuser.
Was it theft or was it just borrowed? Different standards seem to apply where the person who has been raped is doubted.
And yes there are false accusations as there are with other crimes but they are not the majority.
Nov 2nd 2017, 6:38 pm
#140
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Posts: 50,821
Nov 2nd 2017, 6:46 pm
#141
Listen to the Music
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 4,713
Re: Harvey Weinstein
I'm afraid, one swallow doesn't make a summer.
Nov 2nd 2017, 7:48 pm
#144
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Posts: 50,821
Re: Harvey Weinstein
I've been thinking back to my days in the DWP/DSS.
One of our managers was gay - must have been 40 when I started - and he had a teenage "nephew". They remained together for 20 years or more.
When involved in recruitment (he was a training officer too) every new person starting was a young lad.
There was an older woman who gave Christmas Cards and sometimes presents to the female staff
In the 90s a more openly lesbian manager used to write "not fitted" on every application for promotion from males and "fitted" on all those from females.
Another manager used to have 'affairs' nearly every time his wife was pregnant.
One of our managers was gay - must have been 40 when I started - and he had a teenage "nephew". They remained together for 20 years or more.
When involved in recruitment (he was a training officer too) every new person starting was a young lad.
There was an older woman who gave Christmas Cards and sometimes presents to the female staff
In the 90s a more openly lesbian manager used to write "not fitted" on every application for promotion from males and "fitted" on all those from females.
Another manager used to have 'affairs' nearly every time his wife was pregnant.
Nov 2nd 2017, 9:45 pm
#145
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 232
Re: Harvey Weinstein
I am trying to introduce to you the nuances of said situation.
You are arguing, presumably, with the premise that Courts are infallible and I still contend, no they are not.
Of course, in normal circumstance, trial by media is not the correct route by any means. I refuse to repeat myself again though on the arguments
Nov 2nd 2017, 9:45 pm
#146
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 232
Re: Harvey Weinstein
I've followed this thread with some interest and as usual it's meandered away from the central theme and been nudged to a fro and not really got anywhere, so I'm going to raise a few hackles with my two pennyworth.
The problem with the Weinstein affair is that it concerns individuals whose profession is the performing arts. Even as a child, actors and actresses were portrayed as people with a blurred sense of sexual propriety. The multiple spouses they might acquire, the legend of the casting couch, their general behaviour, no doubt exagerated in the tabloids, gave the overall impression that love was something to be traded for fame and this, while greedily lapped up by the population at large, was generally at odds with how 'normal' people behaved, or rather how they thought themselves to behave.
Impressions like this don't fade very quickly and the advent of social media has resurrected and supported the feeling that, rightly or wrongly, these are not 'normal' people who do not behave the way 'normal' people behave.
So when an actor or actress complains of sexual mistreatment many years after the possible fact then the popular judgement is one made against a background of past and present attitudes towards their culture. It's then natural to judge not the accusation but the people involved and to ask the question 'Why now?' and 'Why not then?' These questions are asked of people who are considered not to live in the real world and to live by a totally different set of values. Their publicised antics and the fact that they play roles on and off the screen lead one to ask 'Are they telling the truth?' because even in the real world people tell lies.
It's clear that Weinstein exploited a culture of nudges and winks in the knowledge that those involved were bound together in some kind of mafia-like code of silence and I very much doubt that he's the only one and you have to ask yourselves why, in this window of opportunity, the dam isn't bursting open.
It's against this background that complaints against Weinstein will be considered, first by the justice system who will themselves make a decision as to whether a case can be made and then by the courts who will make a final judgement. I emphasise that the accusers will not be considered as innocent from the outset because of his or her profession and the culture that underlies it and even the weight of witness statements alone won't remove the question of the passage of time.
There has been a great deal of emotion expressed and AC has done his best to overlay how a legal framework approaches these issues, sometimes, I think, with little appreciation or understanding.
The problem with the Weinstein affair is that it concerns individuals whose profession is the performing arts. Even as a child, actors and actresses were portrayed as people with a blurred sense of sexual propriety. The multiple spouses they might acquire, the legend of the casting couch, their general behaviour, no doubt exagerated in the tabloids, gave the overall impression that love was something to be traded for fame and this, while greedily lapped up by the population at large, was generally at odds with how 'normal' people behaved, or rather how they thought themselves to behave.
Impressions like this don't fade very quickly and the advent of social media has resurrected and supported the feeling that, rightly or wrongly, these are not 'normal' people who do not behave the way 'normal' people behave.
So when an actor or actress complains of sexual mistreatment many years after the possible fact then the popular judgement is one made against a background of past and present attitudes towards their culture. It's then natural to judge not the accusation but the people involved and to ask the question 'Why now?' and 'Why not then?' These questions are asked of people who are considered not to live in the real world and to live by a totally different set of values. Their publicised antics and the fact that they play roles on and off the screen lead one to ask 'Are they telling the truth?' because even in the real world people tell lies.
It's clear that Weinstein exploited a culture of nudges and winks in the knowledge that those involved were bound together in some kind of mafia-like code of silence and I very much doubt that he's the only one and you have to ask yourselves why, in this window of opportunity, the dam isn't bursting open.
It's against this background that complaints against Weinstein will be considered, first by the justice system who will themselves make a decision as to whether a case can be made and then by the courts who will make a final judgement. I emphasise that the accusers will not be considered as innocent from the outset because of his or her profession and the culture that underlies it and even the weight of witness statements alone won't remove the question of the passage of time.
There has been a great deal of emotion expressed and AC has done his best to overlay how a legal framework approaches these issues, sometimes, I think, with little appreciation or understanding.
Very fair points, dave_j - thanks for your reasoning
Nov 2nd 2017, 9:54 pm
#147
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Posts: 4,104
Re: Harvey Weinstein
Though, this time, the cleanup has support from both left and right, so maybe they won't have a choice.
Nov 2nd 2017, 11:06 pm
#148
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 232
Re: Harvey Weinstein
Hollywood has been a swamp pretty much forever. I can't see them throwing everyone who's had a casting couch under the bus, and they'll crawl back out of the ooze as soon as they think the coast is clear.
Though, this time, the cleanup has support from both left and right, so maybe they won't have a choice.
Though, this time, the cleanup has support from both left and right, so maybe they won't have a choice.
I still think that outright rape is another thing.
Nov 2nd 2017, 11:07 pm
#149
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 232
Re: Harvey Weinstein
I guess this is now where Twitter for twits comes in.
Nov 2nd 2017, 11:09 pm
#150
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 232
Re: Harvey Weinstein