Euro elections
May 28th 2014, 4:12 pm
#61
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 41,518
Re: Euro elections
But Canada has controlled immigration, if they decided there was a real strain on their resources they have the power to close their borders or at least reduce the numbers, the UK doesn't have that luxury. Also plenty of people move to the US which doesn't have free healthcare so it won't stop people emigrating to the UK, they would just have to weigh up the pros & cons like anyone emigrating does. I'm not saying I agree with putting in restrictions on people perfectly entitled to live in the UK, but I do agree with having a Canadian type system of letting people in.
May 28th 2014, 11:46 pm
#62
Grumpy Know-it-all
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 8,928
Re: Euro elections
But Canada has controlled immigration, if they decided there was a real strain on their resources they have the power to close their borders or at least reduce the numbers, the UK doesn't have that luxury. Also plenty of people move to the US which doesn't have free healthcare so it won't stop people emigrating to the UK, they would just have to weigh up the pros & cons like anyone emigrating does. I'm not saying I agree with putting in restrictions on people perfectly entitled to live in the UK, but I do agree with having a Canadian type system of letting people in.
Plus it's a double-edged sword - where can you live as a Canadian without going through some sort of immigration procedure? Canada. Where can you live as a British citizen without going through some sort of immigration procedure - well the whole of the EU, for starters.
And the UK never signed up to the Schengen Agreement anyway, so it does still have border controls, so people getting in who shouldn't be isn't a matter of law, it's a matter of enforcement.
May 29th 2014, 10:41 am
#63
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 635
Re: Euro elections
The UK signed up to the treaties voluntarily and it wasn't like they were all done ages ago, the Lisbon Treaty was agreed in 2007. And they weren't all signed up for under the same government either, the tories did Maastricht.
Plus it's a double-edged sword - where can you live as a Canadian without going through some sort of immigration procedure? Canada. Where can you live as a British citizen without going through some sort of immigration procedure - well the whole of the EU, for starters.
And the UK never signed up to the Schengen Agreement anyway, so it does still have border controls, so people getting in who shouldn't be isn't a matter of law, it's a matter of enforcement.
Plus it's a double-edged sword - where can you live as a Canadian without going through some sort of immigration procedure? Canada. Where can you live as a British citizen without going through some sort of immigration procedure - well the whole of the EU, for starters.
And the UK never signed up to the Schengen Agreement anyway, so it does still have border controls, so people getting in who shouldn't be isn't a matter of law, it's a matter of enforcement.
The Schengen Agreement is about checkpoints & easier movement in mainland Europe it doesn't allow the country to stop members of the EU coming in. Yes they have control over travellers from outside the EU & can set restrictions/numbers on that but cannot do anything about EU members. In theory everyone from all EU countries can squeeze onto the UK if they wish.
You say the UK signed up for it but all you mean is the government decided, the people never got a say. They voted years ago about joining the EU when they thought it was about free trade & movement for European countires, no one knew then that less developed non European countries would eventually join. Yes treaties were signed by different governments but the one the tories signed way back in the early nineties was a lot different to the ones labour & more importantly Tony Blair signed off on, basically just securing his own personal career options.
The problem is unless the countries are somewhat equal it's not going to work, who is going to want to stay in their home country when they could freely move to another & get 10x the salary for the same job. Or someone who is unemployed that live somewhere where state handouts are non existent, of course they'll want to move to a country where they'll get housed & fed with free medical & a good education for their children, who can blame them. This obviously puts strain & causes problems for other countries, the people are rightfully cheesed off & have every right to show that at the ballot box.
It's easy for all of you who are in Canada who haven't lived in the UK for years or even decades to dismiss this & call people racist or ignorant but you have no idea how much the country has changed in recent years, & we don't need some right wing rag to tell us about it we experience it in our everyday lives.
May 29th 2014, 12:20 pm
#64
Yo
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,474
Re: Euro elections
The problem is unless the countries are somewhat equal it's not going to work, who is going to want to stay in their home country when they could freely move to another & get 10x the salary for the same job. Or someone who is unemployed that live somewhere where state handouts are non existent, of course they'll want to move to a country where they'll get housed & fed with free medical & a good education for their children, who can blame them. This obviously puts strain & causes problems for other countries, the people are rightfully cheesed off & have every right to show that at the ballot box.
It's easy for all of you who are in Canada who haven't lived in the UK for years or even decades to dismiss this & call people racist or ignorant but you have no idea how much the country has changed in recent years, & we don't need some right wing rag to tell us about it we experience it in our everyday lives.
Completely agree with your final paragraph by the way. Talk of racism always stifles genuine debate.
May 29th 2014, 12:49 pm
#65
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 635
Re: Euro elections
The "project" is certainly going to need some reconsideration, and I think these election results are validating that. We don't know yet if we will get another million people from the poorer parts of Europe, but your 10x multiple is not an exaggeration in Romania's case, and you can imagine a situation where a constant net addition of say 300,000 per year would start to impact on the fabric of society. "Start" being an understatement!! The renegotiations that Just-Call-Me-Dave is proposing will be interesting to see. Last year I assumed that they would be dismissed out of hand by the EU. I no longer think that is the case.
Completely agree with your final paragraph by the way. Talk of racism always stifles genuine debate.
Completely agree with your final paragraph by the way. Talk of racism always stifles genuine debate.
May 29th 2014, 3:19 pm
#66
Binned by Muderators
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 11,682
Re: Euro elections
...
You say the UK signed up for it but all you mean is the government decided, the people never got a say. They voted years ago about joining the EU when they thought it was about free trade & movement for European countires, no one knew then that less developed non European countries would eventually join. Yes treaties were signed by different governments but the one the tories signed way back in the early nineties was a lot different to the ones labour & more importantly Tony Blair signed off on, basically just securing his own personal career options.
...
You say the UK signed up for it but all you mean is the government decided, the people never got a say. They voted years ago about joining the EU when they thought it was about free trade & movement for European countires, no one knew then that less developed non European countries would eventually join. Yes treaties were signed by different governments but the one the tories signed way back in the early nineties was a lot different to the ones labour & more importantly Tony Blair signed off on, basically just securing his own personal career options.
...
May 29th 2014, 3:48 pm
#68
Binned by Muderators
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 11,682
May 29th 2014, 4:00 pm
#70
The ride never ends
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: SW Ontario
Posts: 2,481
Re: Euro elections
Because with UKIP you can be a closet racist, pretend it's all to do with overcrowding. BNP are an obvious bunch of thugs and repel people. UKIP attracts the weak.
The guy who founded UKIP left the party when it removed the sections about the party being non racist from its manifesto. He's pretty scathing about Farage.
The guy who founded UKIP left the party when it removed the sections about the party being non racist from its manifesto. He's pretty scathing about Farage.
Assuming there were "racist" sections in some previous UKIP manifesto, how does their removal mean that those who support UKIP today are "weak, closet racists" ?
May 29th 2014, 4:16 pm
#71
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Re: Euro elections
1.8 million UK citizens live abroad within the EU compared to 2.3 million non-UK EU citizens living in the UK.
Two-way traffic, innit?
May 29th 2014, 4:20 pm
#72
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,018
Re: Euro elections
The wording that was removed made the party explicitly non-racist.
May 29th 2014, 4:23 pm
#73
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,009
Re: Euro elections
It is only racism if the opposition to them is based on race. If the opposition is based on their inability to contribute to the country, or the possibility of them becoming a drain on the country, then that is not racism whether they are part of an identifiable group or not.
May 29th 2014, 4:39 pm
#74
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,009
Re: Euro elections
I've always found that to be rather funny.
May 29th 2014, 4:42 pm
#75
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 41,518
Re: Euro elections
It is only racism if the opposition to them is based on race. If the opposition is based on their inability to contribute to the country, or the possibility of them becoming a drain on the country, then that is not racism whether they are part of an identifiable group or not.