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The country we left behind

The country we left behind

Old Dec 19th 2017, 4:37 pm
  #121  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
.

Im not sure what you mean in that how does education define a wage? I'd have thought that was obvious? Isn't that how we all play a role in society, we go to school and are educated and then go to college or university to get educated/trained further so that we can do a job to enable to make a living?If an individual strives to obtain a good education, then don't they deserve a better wage than someone who can't be bothered to do that?
1. Not all students see education as vocational training, some people pursue education for the sake of education or because of a compelling interest in a subject. I think it desirable for society to support education for its own sake but, no, the educated individuals do not deserve a better wage because they are educated.

2. People achieve a higher wage through means other than education, luck, hard work, well chosen parents, are some other important factors. Someone who, for example, creates a product and sells lots of it is not undeserving of high pay because he or she lacks education.

In short, income and education are loosely related but neither defines the other.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 4:40 pm
  #122  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
...there are other ways to try and unite the UK...
Reverse Brexit?

Originally Posted by dave_j
Hmmm... Let us consider a hypothetical problem requiring a decision to be made.
Why not consider the real ones instead?
Now we can use logic and/or common sense or we can look at tea leaves or toss a coin. I suspect that logic and common sense wins most of the time, but what do I know.
So could you explain the logical, common sense decision to spend more blocking hospital beds than would be spent in care homes?

While you're at it, remember the Flexible Rostering/British Rail dispute? They wanted to save a bit of money making train drivers work longer shifts and have reduced breaks. I can't recall the exact details but British rail lost as much in a few weeks of the dispute as they stood to save over a few years. That didn't seem to involve much common sense. Something else prevailed.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 5:16 pm
  #123  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by dbd33
1. Not all students see education as vocational training, some people pursue education for the sake of education or because of a compelling interest in a subject. I think it desirable for society to support education for its own sake but, no, the educated individuals do not deserve a better wage because they are educated.

2. People achieve a higher wage through means other than education, luck, hard work, well chosen parents, are some other important factors. Someone who, for example, creates a product and sells lots of it is not undeserving of high pay because he or she lacks education.

In short, income and education are loosely related but neither defines the other.
I agree with the majorty of what you have said in your first point, maybe what I said was taken as a generalisation, I am looking at myself and my extended family as examples, I am talking about vocational education, not academic.

When I chose a further education subject it was something I chose to directly qualify me for a career/vocation. While some of my aquaintances left school and obtained unskilled work, I was encouraged to obtain an education in a field of work that I would spend my career in, even though at the time it was tempting to earn money for the first time, I knew that would be a short term high.

So in that case I disagree, why should someone who took the easier path receive a wage that is as good as the one who worked hard for an education that related to their skilled vocation.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 5:30 pm
  #124  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
To my other point, I actually meant to add that to my post, about the entrepreneur route to success, this is a natural talent that a person is born with and not something that you can be taught, you either have it or you don't.
I think broad generalizations such as this are a poor expression or definition of what an entrepreneur is.

When I've been self-employed, I've not re-invented anything or made a better widget, I've just delivered a better quality of service in order to differentiate myself. Frankly, that's not all that hard to do in the interior of BC, but I don't think an approach aligned with excellence is particularly entrepreneurial or something other than a mindset.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 5:33 pm
  #125  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
They are not commies but are two unrealistic and dangerous idealists.
I think that you're revealing yourself as an unrealistic and potentially dangerous reactionary.

Enjoy.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 5:56 pm
  #126  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Dbd33 has answered part of the education /wage question but what I dislike intensely is thinking that those who don't have a formal education didn't work hard or that those with fewer academic qualifications should earn less because smarter more educated people deserve more. Genetics, opportunity, and upbringing play a huge part in where we end up in life.

What's wrong with being an idealist? It's how we aspire to be better, to improve. Is that dangerous?

Which of Corbyn's policies are too extreme for you?
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 6:20 pm
  #127  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by bats
...opportunity, and upbringing play a huge part in where we end up in life...
On a plate

Spoiler:
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 8:26 pm
  #128  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
I agree with the majorty of what you have said in your first point, maybe what I said was taken as a generalisation, I am looking at myself and my extended family as examples, I am talking about vocational education, not academic.

When I chose a further education subject it was something I chose to directly qualify me for a career/vocation. While some of my aquaintances left school and obtained unskilled work, I was encouraged to obtain an education in a field of work that I would spend my career in, even though at the time it was tempting to earn money for the first time, I knew that would be a short term high.

So in that case I disagree, why should someone who took the easier path receive a wage that is as good as the one who worked hard for an education that related to their skilled vocation.
Britain is now looking to encourage technical education (T-levels I believe they are calling it) in an attempt to catch up with German productivity. Will it happen? Who knows, far too much class consciousness prevails in modern Britain to let a good idea like this gain traction.

In general education does correlate with earnings, and often it's not down to the knowledge, but the social skills and networks that people young people are able to establish in their younger years.

As to entrepreneurial mindset, it does exist, although as Rich pointed out, individuals without a natural entrepreneurial bent can acquire many of the skills and some of the drive through hard work.

Any luck on your own re-employment, it can't be easy at this time of the year? Hope 2018 will be fruitful for you.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 8:42 pm
  #129  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by BristolUK
While you're at it, remember the Flexible Rostering/British Rail dispute? They wanted to save a bit of money making train drivers work longer shifts and have reduced breaks. I can't recall the exact details but British rail lost as much in a few weeks of the dispute as they stood to save over a few years. That didn't seem to involve much common sense. Something else prevailed.
I did say that logic and common sense wins most of the time. By win I mean that decision making process that generates the most advantageous outcome for the common good.

The examples you quote were not derived using common sense or logic, they would have been political decisions made not for the common good but for reasons detached from the issue in hand. I've often argued that if you give a politician a problem to solve he/she'll ignore the issues and make a decision based on how well they personally come out of it when the dust has settled. A monkey tossing a coin would do better since he/she'll be right 50 percent of the time.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 8:51 pm
  #130  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by dave_j
I did say that logic and common sense wins most of the time. By win I mean that decision making process that generates the most advantageous outcome for the common good.

The examples you quote were not derived using common sense or logic, they would have been political decisions made not for the common good but for reasons detached from the issue in hand. I've often argued that if you give a politician a problem to solve he/she'll ignore the issues and make a decision based on how well they personally come out of it when the dust has settled. A monkey tossing a coin would do better since he/she'll be right 50 percent of the time.
You've often said that, and you've often been entirely wrong.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 9:10 pm
  #131  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by Shard
You've often said that, and you've often been entirely wrong.
Unlike many, I make no claim to be right, but every now and again I might be, although as you so rightly say, I have often been entirely wrong. However, I do take the trouble to make an argument whereas so many simply criticise.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 10:53 pm
  #132  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
A modern communist/extreme socialist are terms I made up, they are not official and are my opinion only. They are terms I coined to put my point across.

Despite what I said earlier Corbyn is not a communist, as even he knows communism has never worked anywhere in the world, but no one can deny that Corbyn's policies are far left which takes socialism to the extreme, as I have said in earlier posts, his socialist intentions are well meaning but are unrealistic and unachievable.

The Patron Saint holiday pledge he made was for FOUR UK wide holidays, one for each home nation, which again is well meaning in trying to bring the UK together, but unrealistic, there are other ways to try and unite the UK.

Im not sure what you mean in that how does education define a wage? I'd have thought that was obvious? Isn't that how we all play a role in society, we go to school and are educated and then go to college or university to get educated/trained further so that we can do a job to enable to make a living?If an individual strives to obtain a good education, then don't they deserve a better wage than someone who can't be bothered to do that?
Wages are a function of productivity in the long run, which of course is a result of many factors of which education is just one. There is also the fact that some simply can't afford to go to university The current situation in the UK and the USA is not working for the poor and the working poor, hardly in either country are the main political parties led by people who truly care AND have a bold enough vision for dramatic change in the 21st century.

If something is not working , trying the same things with the same people won't bring about real change. I don't see dear Jeremy or sweet May really having any sort of real vision to transform the current situation.

Last edited by morpeth; Dec 19th 2017 at 10:55 pm.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 11:08 pm
  #133  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

If wages are " a function of productivity" why do UK MPs get £70,000+ per annum ?
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 9:45 am
  #134  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by bats
Dbd33 has answered part of the education /wage question but what I dislike intensely is thinking that those who don't have a formal education didn't work hard or that those with fewer academic qualifications should earn less because smarter more educated people deserve more. Genetics, opportunity, and upbringing play a huge part in where we end up in life.

What's wrong with being an idealist? It's how we aspire to be better, to improve. Is that dangerous?

Which of Corbyn's policies are too extreme for you?
Right you are. We constantly improve our skills, earn money and tend to have better life. And if there is any chance to live on the coast somewhere in Spain, I prefer it without hesitation! Actually I`ve already purchased a villa in Athens here <<<SNIP>>>and plan to give my kids better opportunities and higher level of life.

Last edited by Jerseygirl; Dec 20th 2017 at 10:17 am. Reason: It looks very much like you are trying to advertise. Plse note that advertising is not allowed on the forums.
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Old Dec 20th 2017, 10:57 am
  #135  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

No reason for all this to be negative, so I thought this was worth a mention.


High-speed broadband to be legal right for UK homes and businesses
Government says internet providers will be legally obliged from 2020 to meet user requests for speeds of at least 10Mbps
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