Alan2005

Still no. The public sector should, at best, mirror the private sector. Anything else is unsustainable. Teachers or whomever don't get to be a special case rising above the general population. Especially as there are loads of them desperate for work.

scrubbedexpat091

Too many people see the government as a cash cow with unlimited funds.

How do people propose the government keeps raising funds while not taxing to a point that hurts people and the economy?

Education across all levels and Healthcare eat up somewhere around 68% of the provincial budget, there has to be a limit where the government just can't keep spending on wages.

Novocastrian

At best? Or at worst? We're not talking about street cleaners here, but about educators. Do you (I shudder to ask) think that education should be in the private sector?

And BTW, unsustainable in this context is invariably a cop-out for lack of analysis.

Novocastrian

And you perhaps, would prefer private sector healthcare?

Former Lancastrian

Some will probably say why not as the private sector doesn't waste as much money as the Govt does and provides cheaper services and can run things more efficiently.
So did you like Mr Hudaks proposal of getting rid of 100,000 public sector jobs in Ontario. That seemed to work in not getting him elected.
So what other Govt run programmes should we hand over to the private sector.
Transit, Policing, Driver Licensing, Health Services, Fire Services, Environment, Natural Resources, Taxes etc etc
I know most want the Govt run booze industry abolished.

Novocastrian

In the contexts of health care and education, where exactly?

I think you know my opinion of Little Timmy Hudak. But apart from booze distribution the only one I can think of is the CBSA (and that'll happen before the booze).

Former Lancastrian

I say go for it privatize the CBSA. Cut our wages by 50% and don't give us benefits. See what level of service you end up with. Some towns in the US privatized their Police services. Oh we have no money to pay you will you work for free. Imagine Toronto with a volunteer Fire Service. Many are quick to knock the PS workers. They bargained for their wages and benefits and Govts agreed to them. I would like to see the results of some PS services that were handed over to the private sector. Did fees increase, Did service levels become more satisfactory etc etc.
Take CIC for an example nearly 2000 workers in the last round of cuts lost their jobs. Ever tried to call the CIC helpline. How about walking into one of their offices to get information ( you can't you have to make an appointment ).
Some will applaud that and say good less costs for the Govt but listen to them bitch and moan because now they have to wait for their services and the 1st thing they say is They should hire more workers
Oh look there is a huge backlog at the UK passport office why mmm less workers.
Ive stood longer in line at the bank than clearing Customs.

scrubbedexpat091

I never said nor suggested privatization of anything.

Healthcare in Canada is largely private enterprise anyhow, the government is just the payer instead of private insurance company.

My doctor isn't a public employee, the pharmacy is a private for profit company, the lab is for profit private company too, but they are paid by the government, and I do not support a system of private insurance, and I do support the current single payer system.

Question why do public sector employees think they are worth so much more compared to private sector workers in similar jobs.

Alan2005

I don't think education should be in the private sector, but public sector employees should be paid based on supply/demand like everyone else. Teachers, road sweepers, whoever.

Also, if the public sector out strips what the private sector can afford, it has to be paid for with a debt of some kind. Ever increasing debt is eventually unsustainable so no it a cop out at all, especially given the wage demands would require the province to run a deficit.

I'd be happy to hear how you'd pay for the teachers extra cash? How about all those who think teachers should get paid more can voluntarily pay some extra tax?

Former Lancastrian

But the Public Sector employees work in a variety of jobs that are not in the private sector. Two of the biggest group of PS workers anywhere is the Fire & Police services. Those occupations don't really exist in the private sector and I can bet you that just the salaries and budgets alone take up a good deal of any cities budget.
PS workers normally provide services that are not profit driven unlike the private sector. You as a taxpayer require certain services and PS workers supply them.
I know several trades people who work in the public sector and they are paid far less than their counterparts in the private sector. The advantage is their benefit scheme is better and thats why they stay.
Everybody always tries to compare the 2 but you can't in a lot of cases.
The teachers are asking for what they consider to be a fair deal not that they are worth more than others.

JonboyE

But they are not. If a fair deal was all they wanted they could have negotiated this months ago. It is only now, after all the grandstanding and strikes that they have dropped their wage demands to something that is high, but at least in the same county as everyone else is getting.

We elect governments. Governments set budgets. That is their job.

This particular government was returned last year for a forth consequtive term in a near landslide. No one in their right mind had any expectation that they would not stick to their main election promise to balance the budget in the comming year. The teachers apart, the government seems to be doing quite well getting deals done with public sector unions within budget.

The BCTF is a special case because they have an agenda other than purely representing their members interests. They seem not to accept that a democratically elected goverment has the absolute right to determine educational policy and budget. I think it is this, that the two parties cannot even agree on their roles in the negotiaion, that makes these deals almost impossible to broker. (This is not a political thing. The BCFT had as many difficulties with left leaning NDP governments as they have with the current centre-right.)

Some of my best friends are teachers () They may not be representative but of the, say, 10 I know 9 have no great interest in, or support of, the antics of the BCFT. They want fair pay. None would turn their nose up at smaller class sizes or more support in the classroom. However, they are teachers because they want to teach and not so they can indulge in power posturing. The problem is that the 10th one will ensure that anything other than being seen to be actively and enthusiastically supporting the BCTF will be professional and career suicide.

Oink

But of these moderate teachers 86% of them voted for a strike.

orly

Proper speed eh?

70 or 80 then?

scrubbedexpat091

40 km/h?

That's roughly what it is in California when converted from MPH and seems to work good there, I think 30km/h is a little too slow, but most speed limits in Canada seem to be slower overall.



I was at the doctor today and there was a teacher talking to someone, and she said she has been teaching 20 hours, and her current wage is barely enough to survive, started a pretty heated debate in the waiting room. (I was not involved in the debate.)

Another side note, I noticed there were people holding signs with another union's name on it, are there more then 1 union on strike, or are they sympathy strikers?

I just ask as while I've been in unions at unionized companies, our contracts always had a no-strike clause if it was another union on property that was on strike, each union had one, we could only strike if it was our own union, but of course we had no right to self help unless the government allowed it, since it was an airline.

Alan2005

Of course.