bakedbean

Such a difficult situation.

Gunnar45

Yes, it is a difficult and I would say largely self-inflicted situation.
Self-inflicted in the sense that the 'heralds of true democracy and arabic spring' have toppled the earlier stable regimes of Iraq and Libya and now are doing their best to topple Assad as well.
And then of course the still ongoing intervention in Afghanistan, where he gov't probably would be toppled minutes after NATO and its friends left.
OK, Saddam, Khadaffi and Assad, etc were/are not the nicest guys around, but the results the interventions have brought are far worse in cost of misery in the home countries and economical and political instability in Europe with a flood of immigrants seeking a better life elsewhere.
With a lot of them being relatively well-off people who would be needed in their home countries to improve the situation there.
So negatives in whichever way you look at it!

That the terrorists in many cases are residents in the countries where they act may be true, but for example in Sweden one gets automatically a permanent(!!) residency just by claiming(!!) to come from Syria.
And Syrian passports are easy to buy.
So it is also a result of open borders and a lack of control of who is coming in.

As Stuurman said, a lot of the new terrorists are second generation immigrants, the children of those who earlier came to the promised lands only to find that there are no jobs available for most of them and therefore got morally destroyed by being banned to a meaningless life in ghetto in some city suburb.
A self-inflicted scenario, brought upon us by media and politicians in consensus talk about human values and rights, integration, etc.
Where to employ these masses in countries where most unskilled jobs have been exported to low cost countries? Maybe solidarity is achieved by turning Europe low cost as well, eliminating most of the middle class and only leaving an elite to rule the masses?

By the way, does anyone believe that the number of terrorist acts will decrease or that the word will become more peaceful by more countries becoming engaged in bombing Syria/Iraq/Libya?

Lastly the issue of culture. Middle Eastern Islam vs the through hundreds of years evolved secular life of Europe with womens rights, democracy, respect, etc.
Public baths have now had to set the clock back a hundred or more years to provide for separate days for male and female customers, men not wanting to shake hands with female employees/bosses, no pork in the public schools, etc.
Women in public service insisting to be veiled, etc.
Actually far worse than most states with Islam as state religion!

Again, what is the thought behind these politics??
Surely it cannot be some naive urge to do good since everyone important from large capital to media seem to be behind it.

InVinoVeritas

I wonder if it isn't a consequence of tourism. We have become used to being able to go anywhere we want and do what we want. We choose to escape the cold and rain and go to exotic parts, trample their culture, erect our own 5 star temples, wander around semi-naked.
They choose to escape tyranny or unemployment and want to bring their culture with them and who can blame them.
For terrorists it's an opportunity to bring their war into our backyard.

Gunnar45

Of course tourism is a contributor as well, even though probably quite small.
Reactions on that have been seen in Egypt, Tunisia and Bali, but I don't think that it would bring so much terrorism to our home countries.
Walking around semi naked is now banned in the street in Barcelona, maybe it was one of the reasons they seek independence :-).

InVinoVeritas

I didn't quite mean a direct exchange between countries but more about the principles involved; we go where we want, when we want, to meet our needs so it's no surprise that they go where they want, when they want, to meet their needs. We install our culture wherever we go and they install theirs wherever they go. We were our swim suits they wear their veils.

Gunnar45

Well, one would think (or maybe hope) that this then should make the different cultures more aware of each other and thus a little more tolerant, but obviously that is not the case then.
And I would not call the present invasion of Europe for mass tourism.

InVinoVeritas

NeonHippy

There is something (the Geneva Convention maybe) that prevents a nation from stripping the nationality from one of its residents and leaving them stateless. But presumably if the person has dual nationality a government could invite them to choose and remove the passport from those who show a preference for the second nation.
I've known of individuals with dual nationality giving up one of their nationalities but I've never heard of anyone being able to give up their only nationality and become stateless.

Gunnar45

Neon Hippy,
I refer my comment about mass tourism (immigrants calling themselves refugees) to your comments:
1. 'I wonder if it isn't a consequence of tourism. We have become used to being able to go anywhere we want and do what we want. We choose to escape the cold and rain and go to exotic parts, trample their culture, erect our own 5 star temples, wander around semi-naked.
They choose to escape tyranny or unemployment and want to bring their culture with them and who can blame them'

2. 'We install our culture wherever we go and they install theirs wherever they go'

Gunnar

Davita

According to UNHCR there are about 10 million stateless people.
It isn't necessary to be of dual nationality to be stripped of one...there are many immigrants to countries who abused immigration rules, lost that citizenship and had to return to country of origin. It isn't a case of being stateless.
Those immigrant citizens of France....if found guilty of assisting, or knowing about, blowing others up... can easily be deported to where they came. There will surely be a record of their origin when they applied to be French.

Gunnar45

Davita,
Yes, there are a lot of stateless people in the world, for example Palestinians and Bedouns in the Middle East.

Regarding the terrorists, many of the people entering Europe do so without passports or other documents which proves their nationalities.
So immigration authorities issue documents based on their stories. Others come with fake passports, for example Syrian which are quite easy to get as Stuuurman pointed out.
In Sweden people who claim to be Syrian are automatically granted permanent residency.
And after four to five years they can then be granted citizenship.

So even if there will be records, these will not necessarily be accepted as being true by the counties who issued them. And why should they anyway be accepted in return? The countries they left probably are quite happy to be without them.

Davita

@ post #71

You are referring to refugees which is a different matter. I was responding to NeonHippy's post about legal immigrant citizens and dual-nationals and the rule (or notion) that citizens cannot be deported.
I have no idea about Sweden but can example Canada, where many obtained citizenship thru' fraud, have subsequently been deprived and deported.

I'm fully aware that some arrive without documentation to avoid being in-line for legal immigration...that is why so many in USA, for example, are tired of the exploits of those illegaly attempting to migrate and jumping ahead of those legally attempting same. I was one who gave up (after 10 years) trying to legally immigrate as I slid further and further back down the queue.

It is the same in Canada...many turn up in rickety old boats and, as soon as the possibility of being rescued by the Coast Guard is encountered, destroy their documents so they can be 'landed' as refugees...it's an old trick.

link: a list of those who were refused entry or granted asylum...one guy spent 17 years at Charles de Gaulle airport...he made a movie.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ed_at_airports

Gunnar45

I guess the US and Canada (and Australia) are more strict with rules for admission and have more clout when it comes to repatriating their unwanted.
In Europe the situation is quite different.

And for stemming the influx of newcomers, Erdogan in Turkey is demanding Schengenvisa exemptions for the Turks and EU membership in exchange for blocking the flood of immigrants in transit there.

SushiFan

Try Japan: 11 refugees were accepted out of 5000 applications in 2014. Compared to that are all countries you mention easy to get into.

Davita

Not so sure that USA has a handle on rules for admission or repatriation...there are somewhere between 11-30 million illegal undocumented people living in USA. (depending on who to believe)...
30 Million Illegal Immigrants in US, Says Mexico's Former Ambassador