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Old Jul 10th 2017, 11:05 am   #16
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Default Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts

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Originally Posted by OriginalSunshine View Post
and you wonder why Brits don't last long
You may be partially correct about why they might not stick around, but it doesn't mean the Brits way of doing things is wrong.

It's strange to me that people wait for the boss to leave the door only for them to then leave 5 minutes after, regardless of how many hours they are contracted to do. If work needs to be done to meet client or internal deadlines, then I agree one should try to remain and commit themselves to completing the work. In the UK, most people are prepared to do this.

Showing to your boss that you are staying seated for longer than him/her isn't a reflection of one's performance, and shouldn't be an expectation or a criteria to advance wiithin the company.

And we are probably going off topic a little. I bet there's a thread about this somewhere on these forums.

Last edited by Travel4life; Jul 10th 2017 at 11:07 am.
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 11:39 am   #17
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Default Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts

In my experience, whether you work amongst Malaysians, Australians, or as in my case, Japanese, you need to observe their culture, be prepared to adapt the way you work, behave, and relate to people, and be extremely tolerant. I have friends who could not cope with the work life in Australia and left after a short while, and we have lost several here in Japan, some don't last a few weeks. It is tough working amongst different cultures but if you are willing, "When in Rome ...." it can have its rewards.
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Old Jul 11th 2017, 5:36 am   #18
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Default Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts

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In my experience, whether you work amongst Malaysians, Australians, or as in my case, Japanese, you need to observe their culture, be prepared to adapt the way you work, behave, and relate to people, and be extremely tolerant.
Exactly, that is also my experience, from having worked more than a decade in Japan.
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Old Jul 16th 2017, 6:41 pm   #19
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Default Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts

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Originally Posted by Hovite View Post
In my experience, whether you work amongst Malaysians, Australians, or as in my case, Japanese, you need to observe their culture, be prepared to adapt the way you work, behave, and relate to people, and be extremely tolerant. I have friends who could not cope with the work life in Australia and left after a short while, and we have lost several here in Japan, some don't last a few weeks. It is tough working amongst different cultures but if you are willing, "When in Rome ...." it can have its rewards.
Which is precisely why I don't believe the OP will last very long.....
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Old Jul 19th 2017, 12:57 pm   #20
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Default Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts

I'm prepared for the change in customs and culture, partly why I've decided to make the move

So I've had the paperwork come through and I'm carefully reviewing the wording. There's a couple of key typos I'll need to suggest to rectify but there are some clauses that I didn't expect...

One is that if I leave the company within 2 years, I'm expected to pay in full the recruitment fees, mobilisation costs like airfare, initial temporary accommodation, and shipping of personal efffects and misc expenses. I guess that's one way of discouraging your staff to leave. Although I have no real intention of leaving within 2 years, does this sound abnormal? I understand the time and investment they put into my recruitment but I've not come across this before.

My notice period is also 3 months without being able to offset it using annual leave. Is this the usual notice period? If after 2 years I decide I want to move on, 3 months notice can often be a deterrant for future prospective employers. I've experienced this before and been turned down for jobs on this basis or have not been seriously considered by the agent.

I will not be on the EPF, which I've just googled is related to retirement fund and pension plans.

I'm deciding whether or not I should discuss these clauses with them. I presume they will be standard for their company. Discussing and negotiating these will obviously ring alarm bells. However, personal circumstances can change any time and this is a big move for me into the semi-unknown.

So my questions are firstly are these common clauses within employment contracts and how receptive to negotiation will they be?

There are other clauses like the working hours being fixed and longer than I've ever worked but like I said I'm prepared for that and consider it to be part of the custom and working culture there. simlarly, there is no overtime and there is specific mention of working on saturdays if workload dictates. again that is expected.

however, the first two I've mentioned are sticking points, and they seem rather unusual to me, especially the 2 year lock with the signficant cost if broken.
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Old Jul 19th 2017, 1:45 pm   #21
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Default Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts

The two years lock-in period sounds familiar and I think it is reasonable if they pay travel and visa and other costs.
But I would try to negotiate the three months notice time.

Regarding working hours and based on my own experience the expat staff is often expected to put in the hours required, the pay is supposed to cover for that :-).
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Old Jul 19th 2017, 1:50 pm   #22
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Default Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts

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The two years lock-in period sounds familiar and I think it is reasonable if they pay travel and visa and other costs.
But I would try to negotiate the three months notice time.

Regarding working hours and based on my own experience the expat staff is often expected to put in the hours required, the pay is supposed to cover for that :-).
Thanks for your swift feedback.

Interesting you say that, as my thought were to not negotiate the 3 months and discuss the 2 year lock. The 2 year lock is more in case of personal or family circumstances changing, my father or mother falling ill in the UK, and I have other family matters in parallel, which could change the cause of my life.

the 3 month notice is directly related to leaving the company for another so seems like a more sensitive clause to discuss. I suppose the family situation could also be applied here, but I wouldn't want to simply pin everything onto personal family circumstances. I may get a better opportunity even after 3 or 4 years, who knows, and the 3 months would be a blockade. It's still an awkward clause to discuss though.
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Old Jul 19th 2017, 3:22 pm   #23
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Default Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts

The three months notice is rather long and it may as you said block possible future career opportunities. Therefore it would be more important and I believe you could raise this point with the employer.
As for the two years 'lock-in' period, it is understandable from the employers view, after all they had some expenses for bringing you in.
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Old Jul 19th 2017, 7:10 pm   #24
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Default Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts

3 months is standard T&C for Malaysia employment
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Old Jul 20th 2017, 4:48 am   #25
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Default Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts

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Originally Posted by Gunnar45 View Post
The three months notice is rather long and it may as you said block possible future career opportunities. Therefore it would be more important and I believe you could raise this point with the employer.
As for the two years 'lock-in' period, it is understandable from the employers view, after all they had some expenses for bringing you in.
I was thinking about this last night.

The 2 year lock is understandable, but I've only ever seen this in the Middle East, rather than SEAsia. In the ME, it puts people in a terrible quandary if family circumstances change - imho it is worth investigating some exclusions allowed for that clause eg death or serious illness of family member.

I'd be more concerned about the contracted hours of working, including Saturdays, as my worry for you would be that this is how they try to cheat you out of public holidays.
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Old Jul 20th 2017, 5:01 am   #26
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Default Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts

What happens if they decide to relase you within the 2 years? Are you expected to pay those charges?
I have checked with a couple of colleagues, one who works in the recruitment industry has never seen such a lock down, the other expat has seen it in an expat package for the Middle East but only for one year. caveat emptor - employer's risk.
When recruiting in the UK and Aus the terms were that the recruitment agency had to repay the fee if the person left within 3 months.
It is a big step moving abroad to work. If I was in your position I would get some local professional independant advice.
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Old Jul 24th 2017, 2:09 pm   #27
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Default Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts

Thanks for all your feedback.

The 2 year locking thing actually specifcally says if i resign or "get terminated for cause" then id had to pay it back. im not sure what "terminated for cause" means. it sounds like if they feel I'm not meeting their expectations in my job role, they would terminate my contract? or for miscondeuct? Does that not then make it a probationary period of 2 years?

The saturday working is not a requirement, but says that im expected to be flexibile in my working hours providing required efforts to complete the workload, including working on Saturdays whenever required.

I've also observed another interesting clause which states that they will reimburse me an X amount for relocating from family from INDIA to KL. errr....I'm from the UK? And this restrictive and very black and white contract now makes more sense. They probably have a majority indian workforce who need to be told the rules word for word and theyve used that contract template for me, but forgot to change the word "India" to "UK"

For me, that questions the entire contract as it seems apparent it is designed for an employee from the specific region.

One thing to bare in mind that the role is at a senior management grade so a 3 month notice period makes sense to an extent. We have that in the UK also.
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Old Jul 29th 2017, 11:00 pm   #28
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Default Re: Offer received for Kuala Lumpur - Excited, Nervous, Ifs and Buts

FWIW I've seen lockin before when the employer has gone to expense in recruitment but usually decreasing, so leave within 6 months 100%, 12 months 75%, you get the idea. Maybe that's an option to look into.
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