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Old Sep 12th 2012, 5:55 pm   #1
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Default Liverpool fans not to blame?

The inquiry in to the Hillsborough disaster has concluded that no Liverpool fans were to blame, personally I think the Liverpool fans have been treated appallingly over what has happened, everything that is wrong with the press, the Police and the Establishment, in covering this disaster up has been like a rotten festering sore, but ....... Surely the Liverpool fans outside the ground are partly to blame? At least a tiny percent to blame? Not at all to blame? Surely not, I might be wrong, I just wondered what any Liverpool fans think. I'm glad that justice for the innocent victims has come at last.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 5:56 pm   #2
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

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Originally Posted by Pit Bull. View Post
The inquiry in to the Hillsborough disaster has concluded that no Liverpool fans were to blame, personally I think the Liverpool fans have been treated appallingly over what has happened, everything that is wrong with the press, the Police and the Establishment, in covering this disaster up has been like a rotten festering sore, but ....... Surely the Liverpool fans outside the ground are partly to blame? At least a tiny percent to blame? Not at all to blame? Surely not, I might be wrong, I just wondered what any Liverpool fans think. I'm glad that justice for the innocent victims has come at last.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 5:59 pm   #3
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

"Not to blame" in the context of "not doing anything the fans of any other team would not have been doing" in that time and place, so yes, not to blame. They did nothing that the police and stewards should not have been able to plan for adequately and deal with.

It was a tragedy waiting to happen, if not to liverpool then to some other club.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 6:06 pm   #4
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

Explain how fans have blame on their hands. As I have said elsewhere it is like trying to blame a drop for rain for a flood. Like those Saudi Arabian stories of a victim of an accident being blamed because if they were not there, the accident would not have happened.

What are the accusations based on? I am guessing that they pushed. I experienced and have read no reports of anyone actively pushing, there was a crush because of the predictable actions of too many people in too small a place. Those at the back move forward and those at the front get moved, until they can not move any further. One end of the crowd not knowing about the other end.

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Old Sep 12th 2012, 6:49 pm   #5
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

This message has been deleted by ededed. Reason: You know what, let them rest in peace. It doesn't matter.

Just wait for the lawyers and compensation claims
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 7:09 pm   #6
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

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Originally Posted by Fredbargate View Post
Just wait for the lawyers and compensation claims
.....and why should there not be?

It has been clear that the authorities lied, after 23 years this has been accepted by the establishment. The stereotype of the football fan of the day was used to shift emphasis from police to fan, and for decades it worked. If they get away with doctoring of statements and out right lies, slanderous misleading leaks to the press, in a case such as this with so many witnesses, and so much attention, think what they get away with when it is just some no mark family with no influence.

The organization on the day was a disgrace, but I accept that sometimes organizations are dysfunctional, some people are crap at their jobs, or have a bad day. Planing sometimes is not what it should be, I accept all those things, but what I do not accept is a cover up, of lies from those who have the responsibility to protect us. There should be a high bar of transparency and accountability in our public figures and when that bar is not only not reached but ignored, as a society we need to root it out. Police falsifying statements is not trivial, it is fundamental to our legal process and our democracy that it be hunted out and stomped on is a necessity.

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Old Sep 12th 2012, 7:23 pm   #7
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

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Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
.....and why should there not be?

It has been clear that the authorities lied, after 23 years this has been accepted by the establishment. The stereotype of the football fan of the day was used to shift emphasis from police to fan, and for decades it worked. If they get away with doctoring of statements and out right lies, slanderous misleading leaks to the press, in a case such as this with so many witnesses, and so much attention, think what they get away with when it is just some no mark family with no influence.

The organization on the day was a disgrace, but I accept that sometimes organizations are dysfunctional, some people are crap at their jobs, or have a bad day. Planing sometimes is not what it should be, I accept all those things, but what I do not accept is a cover up, of lies from those who have the responsibility to protect us. There should be a high bar of transparency and accountability in our public figures and when that bar is not only not reached but ignored, as a society we need to root it out. Police falsifying statements is not trivial, it is fundamental to our legal process and our democracy that it be hunted out and stomped on is a necessity.
The police and other services may be guilty of many things but and it's a big BUT they were not the ones at the back of the crowd doing the pushing that killed the ones at the front.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 7:23 pm   #8
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

I have just been reading the inquiry outcome evidence and the truth is, the Police and stewards were woefully inadequate in their actions and it was this that led to the tragedy, the Liverpool fans were just behaving as normal and we have all been fed lie after lie over the years and the truth is now out and I hope that those to blame are held to account.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 7:29 pm   #9
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

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Originally Posted by Fredbargate View Post
The police and other services may be guilty of many things but and it's a big BUT they were not the ones at the back of the crowd doing the pushing that killed the ones at the front.
Give me a break, No one at the back was doing anything that any other group wouldnt have been doing to get in the ground. There was no concious shove to get in. Read some of the hundreds of thousands of words from people who were there. I love the analogy of blaming the people in the crowd being like blaming the raindrops for the flood. Could have been your mates in the crush in a parallel universe.

Crowds behave in predictable ways, thats the tragedy of this, it was all so easily preventable with some competent, experienced management of the situation.

The real shocker here though is the establishment cover up.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 7:30 pm   #10
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

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Originally Posted by Fredbargate View Post
The police and other services may be guilty of many things but and it's a big BUT they were not the ones at the back of the crowd doing the pushing that killed the ones at the front.
I have not read any evidence that there was any systematic aggressive pushing, only normal crowd behaviour.

and how long were these 'pushers' pushing? The intense crowds lasted a while, it led to the over crowding inside the stadium that meant that the wave that entered later could do nothing other than meet with nowhere to go inside that tunnel.

Where there relays of pushers taking turns, because the early pushers would be inside the stadium, or did they push for a few minutes and then get out of the crowd and go to the back.

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Old Sep 12th 2012, 7:32 pm   #11
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

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Originally Posted by Pit Bull. View Post
I have just been reading the inquiry outcome evidence and the truth is, the Police and stewards were woefully inadequate in their actions and it was this that led to the tragedy, the Liverpool fans were just behaving as normal and we have all been fed lie after lie over the years and the truth is now out and I hope that those to blame are held to account.
You tell a lie enough times and it will be believed, that is what has happened. Despite the Taylor Report, despite todays information, people still chose to blame the supporters; who just behaved in the predictable way a crowd does.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 8:06 pm   #12
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

A post from Spain, Plaza de Toros

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Originally Posted by Fredbargate View Post
A question I asked at the time and will repeat now,

Why are Police required at sporting and other events?
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 8:08 pm   #13
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

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Originally Posted by Fredbargate View Post
A post from Spain, Plaza de Toros
Because experience has shown that they are necessary...

Are you trolling?
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 8:11 pm   #14
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

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Originally Posted by Fredbargate View Post
A post from Spain, Plaza de Toros
and my answer from Plaza de Toros

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Because crowds have rules of operation and behaviour that the individuals within then do not understand, are aware of, or can directly control.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 9:09 pm   #15
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Default Re: Liverpool fans not to blame?

here is my tu'penneth on today. I'll not get in a debate about it, as my opinions won't change

tomorow morning just like most others the past 23 years 96 people won't not be dead.
so what has today achieved exactly.

We all know what happened, on that day and the preceding decade

Liverpool fans were treated like animals that day because for the past decade they had acted like animals.

and yes, it could have been me, or anyone else, because, quite frankly football fans had acted like animals. that's why we were penned in, behind electric fences, forced to nearly have I.D.s, herded in and out of stations and bus depots by the police.

You can't release Liverpool fans of their actions that day as the behaviour of any other team or fan.... other teams and fans included Liverpool tended to act like twats back then

other teams and fans had rioted in Millwall, Luton, Cardiff, West Ham, Bournemouth and too many foreign grounds to mention.

We as fans need to take responsibility too.
If we, the preceding decade, and I INCLUDE HYSEL IN THIS, hadn't acted like twats then the SYP might have thought we weren't acting like hooligans sooner and realised something seriously amiss sooner.

You want justice? and what will justice achieve exactly?
You want people punished so it doesn't happen again? It hasn't happened again.
Our stadia and fan culture is the envy of the world.... there's the justice.
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