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View Poll Results: Did Lance Armstrong cheat?
Hell yeah! 11 33.33%
Probably, no smoke without fire 7 21.21%
Theres really no evidence, innocent until proven guilty 5 15.15%
Cleaner than the driven snow. 1 3.03%
It was ages ago, who gives a monkeys 4 12.12%
Its a witch hunt, leave the guy alone 8 24.24%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Aug 24th 2012, 3:28 pm   #1
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Default Lance Armstrong.

So, hes not going to argue his innocence any more.

But, did he or didnt he?
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Old Aug 24th 2012, 3:44 pm   #2
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

Personally Id say he makes a decent argument in his statement that there is no point in trying to defend himself in a court that cant even follow its own rules, but then again there does seem to be a weight of circumstantial evidence against him, not least of which is what sort of superman must he have been to win 7 tours against people who we know now were doping at the time....


Still, if they never caught him red handed ,then he played by the rules and won, right?

Seems a lot of time and money spent to pin something on a guy who is long since retired. Its loose loose really, his legacy and that of the Tour is tainted if he cheated, and the US antidoping agency is totally discredited if its holding a witch hunt and handing out free passes to cheaters is they make up testimony against him.

Ill be interested to see what evidence the USADA publishes.
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Old Aug 24th 2012, 4:33 pm   #3
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iaink View Post
Personally Id say he makes a decent argument in his statement that there is no point in trying to defend himself in a court that cant even follow its own rules, but then again there does seem to be a weight of circumstantial evidence against him, not least of which is what sort of superman must he have been to win 7 tours against people who we know now were doping at the time....


Still, if they never caught him red handed ,then he played by the rules and won, right?

Seems a lot of time and money spent to pin something on a guy who is long since retired. Its loose loose really, his legacy and that of the Tour is tainted if he cheated, and the US antidoping agency is totally discredited if its holding a witch hunt and handing out free passes to cheaters is they make up testimony against him.

Ill be interested to see what evidence the USADA publishes.
It's unlikely we'll ever see the testimonies given by Armstrong's former colleagues now that he has effectively accepted the charges and there'll be no arbitration case.

The history of the TdF and cycling in general is littered with dope and dopers. All the greats - Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault etc have admitted to taking some form of drug to either aide recovery or boost performance. In his autobiography Fignon freely admits taking drugs and how rife this culture was. So if the UCI decide to strip Armstrong of his titles, who do they hand them to? Ullrich? Zulle? Kloden? Basso? All dopers. Reality is that the majority of the peloton was doping in the 90's and early 2000's, which in itself creates a level playing field. If true, Armstrong was merely the best of the GC contending dopers.
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Old Aug 24th 2012, 4:40 pm   #4
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

The fact that hes not contesting it further shouldnt really be taken as him accepting that he is guilty though should it? Its just that he sees no point in going on with a process that is so flawed / stacked against him after his legal challenge failed.

The USADA has said it will be publishing evidence, but of course now it will not be challenged or cross examined. Be interesting to see if there is a smoking gun (I doubt it), and as you say, where do they go from here, most of the other contenders have doping records anyway. Just accept that everyone was at it, asterix the records and move on.
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Old Aug 24th 2012, 5:05 pm   #5
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iaink View Post
The fact that hes not contesting it further shouldnt really be taken as him accepting that he is guilty though should it? Its just that he sees no point in going on with a process that is so flawed / stacked against him after his legal challenge failed.

The USADA has said it will be publishing evidence, but of course now it will not be challenged or cross examined. Be interesting to see if there is a smoking gun (I doubt it), and as you say, where do they go from here, most of the other contenders have doping records anyway.
It's a surprising move he's not going to arbitration given he's fought every charge up until now. I think the consistent dirty-laundry testimony of umpteen former colleagues would be far more damaging to him if it came out in public. If Armstrong was not a doper, at his peak he certainly surrounded himself with the company of those who did e.g. Heras, Hamilton, Tyler (team-mates), Ferrari & Moral (doctors), Marti (trainer), Bruyneel (team manager).

For me, this is the best worst option he had left and a tacit admission of guilt. As a cyclist, I loved him for his exploits on Mont Ventoux and Alpe d'Huez, etc. I think he's a prick now.
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Old Aug 24th 2012, 5:20 pm   #6
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca67 View Post
It's a surprising move he's not going to arbitration given he's fought every charge up until now. I think the consistent dirty-laundry testimony of umpteen former colleagues would be far more damaging to him if it came out in public. If Armstrong was not a doper, at his peak he certainly surrounded himself with the company of those who did e.g. Heras, Hamilton, Tyler (team-mates), Ferrari & Moral (doctors), Marti (trainer), Bruyneel (team manager).

For me, this is the best worst option he had left and a tacit admission of guilt. As a cyclist, I loved him for his exploits on Mont Ventoux and Alpe d'Huez, etc. I think he's a prick now.
Yeah, I hear you.

Good article here...
http://inrng.com/2012/08/lance-armstrong-quits/
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Old Aug 24th 2012, 6:02 pm   #7
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

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Originally Posted by iaink View Post
Yeah, I hear you.

Good article here...
http://inrng.com/2012/08/lance-armstrong-quits/
Very well written and thought out. Different from the usual hysteria. I'd forgotten Bruyneel had chosen to go to arbitration, so perhaps the testimony will come out. I like the comment they make that Armstrong might have chosen this course to force a public confrontation between UCI and USADA.

Never a dull moment in procycling.
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Old Aug 24th 2012, 9:57 pm   #8
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

I just don't see that as someone who has survived cancer he would risk the possible damaging effects of those sorts of drugs on his body.
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Old Aug 24th 2012, 10:01 pm   #9
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

Lots of others dope too! They just haven't been caught. If he wasn't caught at the time, then live and let live.
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Old Aug 24th 2012, 10:37 pm   #10
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

I also don't understand why he came back into cycling if he had been a drug cheat for all those years. Why would you put yourself back in the limelight of procycling after getting away with it for all those years.

He'll always be the greatest cyclist to me, if he was cheating at the time, so was everyone else around him and he still beat the crap out of them. I find it sad that they have launched what appears to be a witch hunt, they haven't provided any proof in the public eyes that he was cheating, but have stripped him of his titles. I think he'll still be talked of as 'the 7 times tour winner.'
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Old Aug 24th 2012, 10:38 pm   #11
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

I liked one analogy I saw today. That being it's like Steve Redgrave being stripped of all his Olympic titles by a UK sports committee with the principle evidence being that Dwain Chambers said he saw him cheating once. The committee then declare that Chambers oddly has his European title and record reinstated.

I'm actually more offended that the USADA seem to think they have authority and jurisdiction to strip him of titles. I'm not a mug. But he passed every single test - which considering in the 2003 TdF 6 out of the other top 8 riders have been proven as doped to the eyeballs is some feat. Magically he hid cheating that no one else could? Yet in spite of actual evidence the doping chief in the US declares Armstrong to be the biggest, most cunning cheat he's ever encountered and the proof is that he can't find any evidence principally outside of a proven cheat who's former record is now being amended for saying this.

I listened on the radio this morning and essentially Armstrong seems to have been angrily told by the USADA that they would eventually find him guilty regardless of evidence. And that if he refused to go through their show-trial (which it would be) and suffer the consequences and costs then this would happen. So he loses this way in the best way. He's essentially declaring that he doesn't recognize their legitimacy and avoids any stigma from being seen having accusations said right to him. Which makes sense considering they intended to drag him through court and publicly shame him in every arena to show that he was a callous bully and had poor character (it's no secret the man isa massive wanker) - and ergo is the kind of person who would do anything to win. They were going to do that instead of prove he cheated? And they intended to do that repeatedly forever seemingly. How many times has he been asked to prove himself and won already? Except this time the deck was so stacked against him that he would lose either way. The fact the USADA came out so quickly and declared with some odd authority that they have stripped him of the TdF titles and that he should rescind any awards he's received shows a great deal of personal animus in their intent in my view.

Their argument is tenuous anyway. It's playing to the lack of perception amongst non-cycling fans that because he was affiliated with a proven doper that he is guilty by association. But EVERYONE in cycling is affiliated with a doper. Since Armstrong arrived on the tour pretty much anyone in the top 10 has been found to have doped EXCEPT him. The fact that he so openly derided them all as cheats surely as reason for many of them having the attitude about him that they do. The fact that Armstrong has very openly given urine and blood sampling and has remarkably never once been shown to be even slightly dodgy in a sport where seemingly no one can hide it is amazing considering how guilty the USADA think he is.
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Old Aug 27th 2012, 8:04 pm   #12
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

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Originally Posted by N1cky View Post
I also don't understand why he came back into cycling if he had been a drug cheat for all those years. Why would you put yourself back in the limelight of procycling after getting away with it for all those years.

He'll always be the greatest cyclist to me, if he was cheating at the time, so was everyone else around him and he still beat the crap out of them. I find it sad that they have launched what appears to be a witch hunt, they haven't provided any proof in the public eyes that he was cheating, but have stripped him of his titles. I think he'll still be talked of as 'the 7 times tour winner.'
I still can't decide whether it's a witch-hunt or USADA just want an almighty punch-up with UCI. For me, the simple fact is that people lie (and USADA have some of the biggest whopper-merchants preparing to testify against LA) whereas blood and urine usually don't - well at least not 500+ times. Going forward, why bother having drug tests if the testimony of liars will be enough to convict?

Btw, don't be daft. Everyone knows Eddy Merckx is the greatest cyclist ever.
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Old Aug 27th 2012, 10:34 pm   #13
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

if I was going to cheat at something, I'd do it something a damn site less gruelling than the tour de france.

I don't know if LA cheated or not, I don't care. that facts remain the same, after cancer, he rode his ass off around France faster than anyone else.
and some muppet in DC can't take that away.

So why LA, what about Indurain, who was amazing in the half decade prior? or Lemond who won 2 tour de france after being shot.

I just don't get it.
and if he is guilty why do the USADA have any jurisdiction over what someone does in France?
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 1:41 am   #14
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

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Originally Posted by Macca67 View Post

Btw, don't be daft. Everyone knows Eddy Merckx is the greatest cyclist ever.
Fausto Coppi is my guy, especially because his career was interrupted by the war.
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 1:54 am   #15
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong.

Lance Armstrong was/is a cheat..if he had cycled honestly he would have done more for caner sufferers than any man alive ..and I do believe he was good enough to win clean,cycling is only beginning to recover from what armstrong/contador and others did to the sport...
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