Rural Hungary

Hi Fen, I have posted your link here as I wanted to commenton it at the time but felt it might get a bit too deep for the other thread.

Demolition of Roma ghetto

Rural Hungary

Having read the article Fen, I can understand progress, demolishing properties - especially if they are unsafe adobe properties but this I find galling!

"The city government has said it will give HUF 1.5-2 million to any Roma it makes homeless, providing they acquire a home outside the city limits and do not return for at least five years. Jobbik councillors immediately launched a petition of protest: not against the demolition but the offering of compensation."

Being well aware of the issues in many areas, especially where large Roma communities exist such as Zalakomar and the putsza between Hollad and Somogysamson, there has to be a better solution than what amounts to no less than ethnic cleansing with a financial sweetener.

Did anybody see the "Gypsy Matchmaker" last week? The interview with a woman from a village near Pecs shocked even me....

Pollypaprika

No...what channel was this on?

(PS and how do I use multiquote? )

Rural Hungary

Can't remember which station, will check.

To multi-quote, use the multi-quote button, it's between the edit and quote button. When reading through a thread, click multi quote on the ones you want to reply to and on the last post, click the quote button or it should work if you then click new reply.

Rural Hungary

Found it, channel 4 though it should also be on one of the TV streaming sites.
The woman looked like one of my neighbours

Pollypaprika

I am testing it now.

FenTiger

I saw the Gypsy Matchmaker. I was appalled by this marrying off of young girls.

I also found it incredible pushing the Roma out of the city to the countryside. How is this going to help them and what about those non-gypsies living in the countryside like my in-laws. They do have some Roma neighbours .... often they can be heard arguing, fighting and playing traditional Roma music, which my in-laws can hear.

Sorry to say I dislike any kind of gypsy/travellers due to growing up in a town on the edge near countryside which was frequented by gypsies/travellers leaving a mess when they moved on. But it was not always like that. When I was much younger, a wee bairn in Scottish terms, I occasionally saw just one traditional gypsy horse and cart/caravan. As far as I can recall they never left a mess.

I forgot to add when I visited Malyi-to I noticed some Roma washing their clothes in the lake. Didn't impress me because people, including me and local friends like to swim in the lake. It's made me now think is it clean enough.

Rural Hungary

This was one aspect of life in Hungary that, with a young daughter, I found particularly difficult to come to terms with. In many cases, potential partners are found and given approval by the patriarch at the age of 14-15 with them expected to produce a child by the age of 16. However, this was not confined to the Roma community and poorer Hungarian families were quite willing to find a match for their daughters at an early age. Discussing this with a well educated, Hungarian friend of mine, she did not see it as a problem, not even the increasing number of 40-50 year old foreign men setting up home with girls of this age and with the age of consent being 14, the relationship is not illegal.

The Roma are very different from Irish travellers, different cultures, different origins but regardless of whether they are Roma or Irish traveller, you can't tar them all with the same brush Fen.

I won't drone on about it but as I have said before, poverty has a crucial part to play in the issue and we have worked with several Roma all of whom were trustworthy, didn't drink and had mortgages. However, there was a noticeable difference between Roma in the poorer areas of Somogy and Baranya counties and those from Zala and Vas county - I only mention these areas because they are the ones I have personal experience of. The higher the level of unemployment and poverty, the higher the levels of crime, substance and domestic abuse.
Yes many Roma can be expressive or loud but then so are many other nationalities and whilst acknowledging the issues of noise, usually drink related, again the root cause of this is something that needs addressed and again, some areas are worse than others.
Whilst acknowledging there are many issues, you mustn't forget that there are also Roma who have degrees, are successful musicians, artists or just work damn hard to support their family in a world where they are discriminated simply for being Roma.

Regards washing the clothes in the lake, not a good time to mention then the dead water rats, kids urinating, waterbirds defecating in it ;-)

FenTiger

Age of consent = 14 - Never knew that.

Roma - I take your point there's a good, bad and ugly side ..... and I take point that you could switch 'roma' for any other nationality/culture/minority .... including the English in certain parts of the UK and still be reading about the same problems.

Rural Hungary

Many people aren't aware of it, nor the fact that it is 12 if the other party is under 18 I only discovered it when I had an issue with a married man dating a 13 year old in our village - I researched the subject and was shocked. Even more shocking was the discovery that the age of consent in the Vatican City was 12 although a law brought in last year changes the age of consent to 18 unless the girl is married in which case, it is lowered again to 14.

fidobsa

Yes, I was not aware of it until I read it here and then did some Googling. It seems the age is even lower in Spain and in parts of USA it was as low as 10 back in the 1880s. I was also not aware of arranged marriages amongst the non Roma community. It is understandable that the Roma have arranged marriages, as they originated from India 1000 to 1500 years ago.

FenTiger

What age does a child become an adult in Hungary? Ah .... it's 18 according to this link
Age of majority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
but I am shocked that the age which a girl in Iran and Saudi Arabia becomes an adult is 8 years old. I assume this is a deliberate attempt to allow older men to marry young girls! Why would they want to do that?

Rural Hungary

For similar reasons that less than 150 years ago, the UK allowed marriage for girls at 13 and 12 before then - Ireland was much the same and probably most of the world at that time.
Girls were not valued as boys were and deemed a burden on their families and so marriages were arranged as soon as possible. Further, with life expectancy being 30 in the UK at that time and no doubt much lower in other parts of the world, girls were expected to become pregnant immediately after they reached puberty. In some countries today, a girl can be married as young as 6 years of age but the marriage must not be consummated until the girl reaches puberty.
For Islamic countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, the matter is further complicated in that many Muslims believe the prophet Mohammad married Aisha, widely regarded as his favourite wife, when she was 6 years old though general consensus is that the marriage wasn't consummated until she was 9. However, there are those who argue that she was in fact older though both sides appear to agree that the marriage was not consummated until after puberty which is an important point with regards to the Sunnah.
Though Sharia law apparently states marriage is permitted once the girl has reached maturity - both physically and psychologically, it also allows for the father or custodian of a girl to agree to a girls marriage before this.
Therefore, unless it could be proven that Mohammad married and consummated his marriage with Aisha when she was 15,16 or 17, I don't see how Sharia law could implement an age of consent of say 16 as it would be contrary to the Sunnah. It's much more complicated than what I have written and I'm far from knowledgeable on the subject but hopefully it helps?

Another factor is that in several countries, more so rural areas and where girls are far out numbered, the girls family are paid a "dowry" instead of the traditional dowry paid by the girls family and is therefore a further incentive for fathers or custodians to sell the girls into marriage.

FenTiger

I had an Iranian lodger back in the late 90's and I recall him telling me his Grandfather married a young girl of 10 years old!