Cliftonensis

My home in Italy was broken into in January. Unknown to me they had taken a cheque book for my Italian bank. In March I discovered that 2 cheques had been presented. Neither of them had my name as the signature and they were uncrossed cheques.

The first for about 1,700€ had been cleared and the second, for over 3,000€ had been debited to my account but not actually paid out. The first I knew was a message from the bank to get down there. I was told 2 cheques had been presented and unless I paid in enough to cover them I would be black-listed and never be allowed to sign cheques in Italy. I went to the police and made a statement. On that basis they refunded the larger cheque but claim that Italian law requires them to pay all cheques for less than 2,000€ and that there was no real chance of getting my money back.

The police have not investigated the smaller cheque and have never got back to me. It took several months to get a copy of the smaller cheque!

Does anyone know if the bank are telling the truth about the 2,000€ limit?

Thanks

Lorna at Vicenza

Hi, what a shame your first post here had to be about such awful news.

I can't answer your questions properly yet but I do know that Italian cheques carry more weight than British ones. I don't believe you can even stop / block a cheque in Italy.

I do know somebody quite well who works in a bank so will ask him when I can.

TestaRossa

My landlady pushed for us to pay our rent by dd. We were about to until we discovered that in Italy the banks pay the dd even if the cash isn't there, unlike the UK where it gets stopped then represented a few days later! As we are transferring cash over from the UK and arrival can vary from a day to six there was no way we were going to do this! We also discovered it is against the law, probably for the above reason, for her to insist we pay this way.

Hope you can sort it out....the length of time might be against you now though, I know it would in the UK, but as you have documented it with the police maybe you have a better chance...

37100

Sorry to hear of the burglary happened to us, very upsetting.

Asked hubby on this one. He said that the bank is how shall I say, modifying the truth to their convenience. Under €3,000 the banks compensate between themselves. It's nothing to do with customer accounts just makes life easier for the banks. All cheques are 'non-trasferibile' since 2007. Was it an older cheque book? You have the copy of the cheque. Could you p.m. it to me. (you need 3 posts before you can do that.) It's almost unheard of for a bank to pay cash unless they know you very well. You need a document to get the money. So they must know what happened the money. If there wasn't enough money in the account they shouldn't have paid out. They can't 'protest' your cheque because it's too late (there's 8 days for that) but they can put you in their 'little black book' and make life difficult. The best thing to do if the bank won't budged is to get a lawyer to get the account blocked. I've condensed this, but I think I'm clear. If not ask. Don't be intimidated by the bank. It's all part of the excellent customer care Italy is sooo famous for.

Things take longer here and just because the police haven't got back to you doesn't mean they aren't investigating, but neither does it mean they are.

P.S. No, you can't stop or block a cheque. The best you can expect is the bank to hold on to it for a few days if they know you very well.

Lorna at Vicenza

Hi,


would you mind clarifying if you had the 1.700 in the bank to actually cover the first cheque. It might make a differnece in knowing if the bank considers this a "protesta" or not.

Anyway - from what I have heard so far ... even if you get done and black listed - called "revoca di sistema" it only stops you using cheques for 6 months. Not forever.

Lorna at Vicenza

and from what else I have been reading - the bank is playing with you - as even if they do black list you, you can get removed from the black list because the cheques were stolen ones.

Take no BS from the bank !

37100

Easy said than done one the first count Lorna. Having said that, who takes a cheque nowdays anyway. On the second count, yeah, don't stand the BS.

Lorna at Vicenza

Aren't most things easier said than done here.

Bloody banks. Bloody thieves.

OH's credit card got cloned somewhere a few months ago. Thank goodness it was the work one - still in his name though. He had to go to the police when he got back.

It's to be hoped that my bank would not a pass a cheque through for that amount. They must know I am not a big spender.

Cliftonensis

thanks for the advice. There was enough to cover the smaller cheque but not the second one. So they put my account in the red until I had been to the police and sworn out a statement that the cheques were stolen. they they refunded the larger sum.

The cheques were about 3 years old. Not crossed and did not have my name printed on them of course. But they had been signed over on the back 2 or 3 times which should have raised the alarm. They were paid well outside of the area as well. The name signed on the cheques was not mine or even like it. The bank say that the smaller cheques are paid automatically with no check of the signature. The other cheque was sent to the branch for clearing which is why they had a copy.

I have made 2 statements to the Carabinieri now. the bank clearly had no interest what so ever as long as they lost no money. I protested the cheques the day they told me about them and disclaimed them in my statements.

Lorna at Vicenza

Banca D'Italia says ....

http://www.bancaditalia.it/servizi_p...rischi_traente

Firma
L'assegno deve essere firmato da chi lo emette in quanto la firma (detta di traenza) vale come ordine - per la banca - di effettuare il pagamento. La firma - che deve essere uguale a quella depositata presso la banca - va nell'apposito spazio; è consigliabile non usare lo spazio sottostante in quanto eventuali scritte o segni in questa zona possono impedire la lavorazione elettronica dell'assegno.

Rischio
La firma apposta manualmente, comprensiva di nome e cognome e uguale a quella depositata in banca, evita il rischio di perdite in caso di falsificazione della firma. Se non rilevabile dalla banca, la falsificazione della firma non consente a chi ha fatto l'assegno (traente) di recuperare eventuali pagamenti non effettivamente disposti.


I take that to mean that a signature on a cheque has to be the same signature left at the bank to avoid losses in case of falsification. There is no mention of any money limits anywhere at all or 'small cheques'. You say the signature was nothing like yours so the bank never checked a damn thing.

37100

Important thing:- What was the date on the check? Because if it was after the new 'normativa' yes, you can omit a 'non-trasferibile' up to a certain sum, but it's not easy and you have to fill out forms at the bank. If it was back dated it should have raised a few alarm bells. The banks do automatically pay smaller cheques, but that is their risk not your's. A bank must act like a 'buon padre di famiglia', if the name is different the bank KNOWS they are wrong. Go back and have a rant. If they still don't budge, get a lawyer. You can recoupe your costs from the bank

Where are you in Italy?

duffer

Try using this letter -

Mittente:
Nome e indirizzo del titolare del conto

Destinatario:
Nome e indirizzo della Banca
Nome e indirizzo della Banca Direzione Generale
Ufficio Reclami

Raccomandata a.r.

Luogo e data

Oggetto: risarcimento danni per incauto pagamento di assegno

Con la presente Vi chiedo il risarcimento dei danni da me subiti a seguito dell'avvenuto pagamento da parte Vs. dell'assegno n° ........., da me emesso in data ...... a favore di .......... per il complessivo importo di euro ........, a persona diversa dal beneficiario, cui suddetto assegno era stato sottratto (oppure che aveva smarrito il suddetto assegno), non avendo al momento del pagamento provveduto all'identificazione del beneficiario stesso.

oppure

Con la presente Vi chiedo il risarcimento dei danni da me subiti a seguito dell'avvenuto pagamento da parte Vs. dell'assegno n° ......... da me emesso in data ...... a favore di .......... per il complessivo importo di euro ........ , per una cifra (euro.......) ben superiore a quella per il quale l'assegno era stato emesso, nonostante l'evidente contraffazione dello stesso.

Vi invito pertanto a corrispondermi, entro e non oltre 10 giorni dal ricevimento della presente, a titolo di risarcimento del danno, la somma di euro ...., pari all'importo da Voi pagato per l'assegno suddetto.

In mancanza, mi riservo di tutelare i miei diritti innanzi all’autorità giudiziaria e/o all'Arbitro Bancario e Finanziario.

Distinti saluti.

Firma

Lorna at Vicenza

Duffer is that a facsimile of a standard letter of complaint or did you write it ?

Cliftonensis

Thanks very much for the letter but I did not issue the cheque. The book was stolen in a break-in and the complete cheque is a forgery.. As I d the nam on the signature space was not even mine!
Thanks anyway

Lorna at Vicenza

We could always change a few bits of that letter around for you.

Sometimes Italians take more note of a black and white letter than they do a person to person visit. Especially if you address it to the bank manager and also mention that a copy is going to the regional manager too.