sunnysider

I am perfectly aware of all that ciquta.

And Gordon Brown was of course not elected as leader of the Labour Party or as PM directly by the electorate. I never claimed he was.

Because that's not my point.

And never was.

(no - - I'm not a fan of Gordon Brown either in case you want to go down that line).

sunnysider

Mark - I think that link has changed.

I did look briefly before at the page it did point to - Renzi's opening call - and in truth found it rather depressing. Appeared to say - look to Europe for hope, for I know you have none/very little for Italy.

modicasa

Trying to read between the lines is only autolesionismo.
As is proved in any democratic country, the realtionship between national elections and local/european elections is tenuous - the latter are usually a protest vote to the former.

The big two things to take into account with Italian politics are:
1. Italy has only the appearance of a democracy.
2. It is essentially an ungovernable country (if you even buy into the country thing)

The consitution has so many safeguards to protect against the rise of another dictator that it inhibits anyone being able to make a decision, as it also inhibits the possibility of an absolute majority. Should there be a resounding majority in the 'Commons' there will be a block in the Senate and the Constituinalists to stop any reform that is meaningful. All that happens in ITaly is minor tweaks to minor laws - anything really structural is blocked at the outset.

MarkRD

aaargh! you're right .. looks like it's still 'undr construction' although there is a HUGE photo of theman himself, which I would not advise at this early hour, and not for the faint-hearted

There was a bit of a press conference on telly last night about the launch of a new internet site to do with the justice system or something but I'm not sure what that is.

edit: oooh - special Eurocoins!

sunnysider

Hi Mike

Yes I know. Though I understand that the powers of the President are somewhat open to interpretation and that Napolitano has pushed (I mean this as a technical comment - not a moral/judemental one) this interpretation somewhat during his tenure.

More than "suggesting" certain ministers it has been clear to me ever since 2011 that he actually removed the country's Prime Minister (Brit term) Berlusconi. So in my view the so-called "Euro conspiracy theorists" are right. That's what happened. It was just so. Whether that was right or wrong is another matter - some would argue that there was no choice if Italy wasn't to collapse and take Europe with it.

I'd better stay away from the thread for a while as I've posted a few posts here in trying to reply to folk individually - maybe I should have replied to folks all together in a single post but I'm always really ham-fisted with the quote thingy.

On the general point of differences between British systems (and I'm no great fan of aspects of the Brit one, including the seriously wonky electoral system) in truth I think you can only take the "we do things differently here" line so far, otherwise you end up applying it to Berlu's 6 to 8 day prison term or whatever it is. All perfectly legal of course. All perfectly compliant with due process of course. All perfectly constitutional of course.

all the best, thanks for your posts.

Back to Renzi maybe

highlander1

Renzi is the third PM NOT elected by the voters since 2011.

Is that good democracy?

Google Renzi il bomba nice set of articles on him, mostly in italian, he is modelling himself on TB ! Happy days.

ciquta

No sunny, that's not true, he didn't remove Berlusconi at all.
The parliament voted against him, so few days later he had to resign.

And it was nearly one year after his govern lost the seats, he governed the country until that day greasing members of the opposition.


This is what you should REALLY worry about Italy: a president can bribe and still get 28% at the next elections!!! (but I think it could happen everywhere once someone get the control of the media).

sunnysider

Hi ciquta

I'd better pop back to respond to your point.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the circumstances of Berlusconi's removal/decision to pursue his many other interests, but I think it's fair to say that many of your fellow citizens think he was removed - given an offer he had no choice but to accept - which is saying something considering some of Berlu's contacts.

Such theories have also I think been put forward in mainstream Italian media. Not the lunatic fringe.

I should maybe also assert that I'm not generally a conspiracy theorist. But then this is Italy ...

I would very probably not agree with many of the other views of many of the Italians who suggest the conspiracy/removal theory but I would agree with them that it was a removal.

Seems to me that a legal case can be made for anything in Italy - pretty much everything can be squared with the constitution so that bad stuff ticks the legal boxes. It is after all a country of lawyers, the new priests, who like the priests can square anything with their sophisticated reasoning.

And of course even Mussolini came to power in a constitutional way. And left power the same way.

As I said we'll have to disagree - I don't see either of us budging on this.

As for the media thing, well another issue that has been dealt with elsewhere a lot I think. Of course certain folk thought that the media oddity could be managed - plenty of folk/legalistic priests to argue that it was all legal, handled properly, effectively approved by Parliament and the cohorts within. And what are those anal northerners complaining about - don't they have Murdoch etc etc. One Italian once answered my desperation over the RAI situation with the retort that "come on, the UK government controls its TV.

all the best good to see you on the forum.

I'll try and keep away a while and watch Renzi

ciquta

The mainstream Italian media is (or at least was) a lunatic fringe by itself.
5 out of the 6 main TV channels were his own property or public controlled by his devoted servant, from the director down to the reporters.
Imagine the owner of cocacola appointing the board of pepsi... this is what the main media has been in italy for a dozen of years.

All his political success is based on a very simple statement: tell a lie once, it's still a lie. Tell a lie at the TV thousands of times, and most people start believing it.


In fact, he resigned after losing a vote at the parlament because a former ballerina of his TV show crossed the floor at the last minute, but we are still talking after years about international conspirancy and reptilians.

sunnysider

er, hi ciquita

Agree with most of your post but should point out that by media in my post I was referring to the broader media including print. I don't have a clip to hand but I think there's probably a very good chance that La Repubblica for instance has covered the backstory on the events of November 2011. I know I've seen it reported in mainstream Italian newspapers.

Come come ciquita - I'm not talking about reptilians or such bizarre conspiracy theories.

It was a specific extremely serious threat to Italy and Europe.

At the time many Italians I think were more interested in some floods in Genoa - going back to your TV argument.

But other folk - for better or worse - felt that something had to be done. I'm not accusing them of bad intentions. It's more complicated than that.

I personally thought it an extremely sad day for Italy (massive understatement) when Berlusconi fell the way he did.

I know some people who were cracking open the champagne in full "yah boo/our contrada has won" mode - oh poor deluded fools.

No - I'm not a Berlusconi fan. That's not the point.

Back to Renzi - has he done owt yet?

MarkRD

Here's the proper link (English)

"On Wednesday in Strasbourg Renzi will present the Italian Presidency guidelines"

..can you wait?

ciquta

You can easily check that people opened the champagne just after that vote, well before he climbed the Colle.
I was in Naples that particular day and I do remember very well the firewors, it was very clear to everyone that it was the end, well before the chat with Napolitano.

Seriously, how can you govern not having the majority at the parliament?!?

He also lost 6millions of votes at the next elections (which were many more in that particular period), so what international cospiracy is this?!?

modicasa

And of course even Mussolini came to power in a constitutional way. And left power the same way. '???????????

HOwever, on topic, it was a combination of both Cicita and Sunnysiders theories - Berlusconi didnt have the votes, and was behaving in a way that was alienating his supporters, and with the spread heading ever upwards there was European pressure for him to go, remeber the giggle between Sarkozy and Merkel - which came to be Berlo's death warrant. The Italians can take alot, but they dont like being laughed at - and Berlo became a liability at that point - and I think it was a constructed opposition. However, the damage was done within Italy because Berlo is a lying cheating piece of sh)(t, whatever you think about Napolitano - the latter accepted Berlo's resignation because he puts 'ITaly' before his self interests.

sunnysider

Yes, as is pointed out by quite a few historians.

And there are certain parallels between Mussolini's removal and Berlu's.

Which was why I tossed it in.

But another thread or PM thingy maybe.

And no I'm not saying Berlu is a straight fascist any more than I'm saying Napolitano is a reptilian.

The "The Italian disaster" (googleable) article posted by primula a while ago deals (amongst lots of other stuff at impressive length) with Berlu's fall and its analysis matches my memory. One very interesting quote from Monti in there as well.

PS - Modicasa - what did you mean by "and I think it was a constructed opposition." ?

sunnysider

Hi modicasa

You may not have spotted my question within the text above.

Can I ask what you meant by this?

regards

s