seemos

Hello - I will be thankful if someone can advise me the very complex social secuurity system.

I am going to work in Italy on a contract for 7 months and will have to pay into the pension system. However, I beleive as my contribution is for small period, I will not get any pension. Is it possible to opt-out of the pension scheme if you are there for small period or to transfer your contribution back to your own country - for example in a UK pension scheme?

Many thanks

modicasa

You cant opt out in Italy. And as you wont be there for a full year it probably wont count as a contributory year in the UK - and after BRexit we are all in the dark about pensions.

Geordieborn

If you are working in the UK for the other 3 months then it is quite possible (likely) you will pay sufficient contributions for a full year there. In any case the contributions you pay in Italy would be used if needed as the calculation is done right down to week level and only overlapping contributions ignored. It is in fact no different to the UK as if working there for 7 months you would pay NI.

Serrano

Sorry Geordieborn, I'm thoroughly confused by this.

First, the OP talks about 7 months contract in Italy. Where does 'the other 3 months' figure arise from?

Second, inspired by the above, a hypothetical case I've never considered before but which could be relevant to the OP. Let's take an example of a medium/high earner (let's say 10 times the minimum NI threshold) who works in the UK and pays their NI for 6 months of a tax year but (for whatever legitimate reason) doesn't make contributions for the remaining time, how is this viewed by the Pensions people. Do they take the total contributions paid divided by the weekly minimum and arrive at more than 52 weeks worth of contributions, thus a qualifying year (which seems sensible) - or do they simply say 6 months of contributions does not count as a qualifying year (which also seems sensible )?

Here, as far as I know , intra-EU contributions can be used only to calculate the number of years of contributions in order to achieve the minimum to qualify for for a pension in any member state. But not in the calculation of how much pension you would receive. To clarify, intra-EU recognition is used to determine the QUALIFICATION for a pension, but not for the AMOUNT.

Thus for example a person who had 9 years of UK contributions would receive nothing under the new system. However if they also had a 10 years' contributions in Italy that would be recognised by the UK (WHILE THEY ARE STILL IN THE EU) and they would then receive a UK pension of 9/35 (not 19/35) of the basic pension. But in Italy probably nothing, as in most cases 20 years of contributions are required to get anything.

Or have I got it wrong?

And finally, the BIG QUESTION for many of us - what happens after Brexit? All other things being equal, I would prefer not to trust the UK negotiating team to have thought of these sort of considerations in their detailed planning activities .....

Geordieborn

Whoops, sorry it was just my maths - 5 months UK and yes that could well qualify as a full year the way they work it.
The EU calculation is not just to qualify for any minimum, yes they pro-rata the result and in effect in your example the result is 9/35 of the UK max. I could never work out the reason for their calculation, but they do work out a theoretical amount, then reduce it by their insurance years over the total combined years, in your example 9/19.
I personally think Brexit will make no difference whatsoever as they had reciprocal arrangements with most European countries long before the UK went into the EU. However I would not want to bet my pension on it

Serrano

Well, call me cynical if you will (and you wouldn't be the first), but whenever a calculation is performed in a strange way, I always look for the angle where they're saving money. If in the scenario above there were 35 qualifying years in Italy and 9 in the UK, then the calculation might proceed as follows:
Total of years = 44, thus full pension. Fractioned down gives 9/(35+9) = 9/44 of a full pension - not 9/35.
OK, guilty as charged, cynical .

The devil is as always in the detail. Reciprocity is one thing, and for example the UK currently has 'reciprocal arrangements' with a number of other countries - and doesn't have them with others. But are those arrangements always identical (somehow I doubt it) and do any or all of those arrangements include the recognition of qualifying years in order to meet the minimum threshold? The simple answer is that I don't know, but again I kind-of doubt it.

seemos

Thanks Guy and sorry for opening the pandora box. It seems brexit is making everything interesting.

Modicasa suggests that I can opt out of state insurance. How? My employer has no clue and they just want to deduct the total social security contribution including that of pension.

Serrano

I think you misread it. Modicasa said "You cant opt out in Italy" (my bolding). It is refreshing to see apostrophes not being over-used, but on the other hand ...

seemos

Aah sorry

My brain has decided to take a break.