gelato

MCairns - I think it depends a lot on where you are. Even within Lazio. I had 2 babies at San Camillo in Rome and had generally good experiences barring a bit of bureaucracy. The actual births were both wonderful and the midwives and doctors seemed very enlightened. But across Rome at Policlinico for example I've heard some extremely negative stories. We're lucky that here in Rome we have lots of choice at least. Not so easy if you're in small town Lazio.

I didn't get any help with latching either but I attended La Leche League meetings ahead of time, bought a book about BFing which I brought to the hospital and generally tried to prepare myself and it all went OK.

Isakat

K in Modena, I am curious why dont' you want your children to grow up here?

ballerina

I too don't want my kids growing up here. Firstly because I don't want them growing up with ideas about not being able to play outside if it is raining or windy etc, I want to raise good sturdy kids who don't think it is normal to take to your bed for a sore throat or sniffle, and talk about having a 'fever'. Secondly, because it is too expensive to raise kids here - on the news a few weeks back there was a woman saying it cost her €1000 to send each child to school, with buying all the stationery etc. Many things seem a lot more expensive. Thirdly because there is no doubt that we would have a much much more comfortable life in England. We'd never be able to afford to buy a house with a garden here and enough space for the kids. for the same price as this city, I could buy a 3 bed house with a garden in My UK city as a 1 bed apartment costs here. Fourthly, if we moved back to my UK city, it would be easier for us to see our families, instead of making trips to Leicestershire and Gallipoli, we'd only have to make the trips down to Gallipoli, which is just as easy/difficult as going from LA Spezia.

Also, OH (who is italian) says that they will have far more opportunities when they are older in the UK than in Italy. I don't really know about that having only UK experience really, but I have seen that his younger sister and her boyfriend and friends have no chance of getting work in their city, there are just no prospects.

K in Modena

For similar reasons to Ballerina's, plus the fact that it's too hot in the summer so you can't do anything and Italians are even more obsessed with getting a tan than Brits. Sadly my daughter has inherited my pale English skin not her Dad's dark complexion so we have to be careful there. Plus after what happened in May I never want to live in an earthquake zone ever again.

I also really struggle with the role of women in the Italian media. I'm not just talking Striscia la Notizia, it's on Rai too. It just seems normal to see half-naked women and men in suits! I know we have page 3 and the like in the UK but it's not as pervasive as it is here.

Then there are the crazy drivers. I don't drive here because I'd be too scared (although I have a license, which I got here!) and crossing the road is always done at your own risk!

I do agree that Italy is a wonderful place for holidays though.

ballerina

Same here, OH and I just feel that we'd appreciate Italy much more if we just came for holidays, we find it impossible to live a decent life here. By decent I mean being able to afford accommodation where us and our (soon to be) 2 children won't have to all sleep in the same room, will have nice spaces to play outdoors, being able to have treats occasionally, being able to afford to buy certain basic things every week in the supermarket shop. These kinds of things. For us, the cost of living here has soared so much that every month we really struggle. Especially since the gits I worked for promised me my job back after I had the baby and then didn't stick to their word.

Patty

I know what you mean ballerina - my salary is the same as it was when I started working here in 2004, but everything has rocketed pricewise and we are finding it really difficult to get to the end of the month. Like you we never do anything special - meals out and holidays are luxuries we cant afford. I seem to be spending more on petrol than anything else. 10 euros used to get me through a week but now I put 20euros in every couple of days Its all quite depressing and I wish we could move away. I envy those of you who can.

ballerina

It's not 100% sure that we can move away, it all depends on OH requesting a sabbatical and getting it. And then finding work for him. And convincing him that we should take a risk and just go for it. My plan is to not come back after the next baby is born. How can I bring a toddler and a newborn to a one bedroomed apartment that we can only just about afford, where we live like prisoners when OH is at work because I can't get out the house with a baby and pushchair in the stupid lift that is too small.OH can see that we have to make the move, but he doesn't have the sense of urgency that I do, he thinks we should take our time, whereas I think we don't have time (and I am right!)

K in Modena

I know you want to move away urgently, but should you find yourself here for a bit longer... is there nowhere you can leave the pram in the entrance hall to your building like we do here with the pushchair? How about using a baby carrier or sling for the first few months? I'm not sure what we'll do as I used to just about be able to get the removable pram top into the lift but with a toddler it'll be more difficult (I could leave the whole thing downstairs but it takes up more room than the pushchair). I've got a sling this time around so am hoping it'll be easier on the shoulders than the Baby Bjorn was (my daughter was big!)

37100

I hear you. A 1bed flat with 2 small kids though not impossible, is hard on a family. I live in a flat (roomy with large terraces/balconies) because we (I ) want to live in the town centre, but when my kids were growing up we always had at least a garden flat -paid for by OH's employers. OH is retired now -he started work at 13- and while we are by NO means wealthy, we are fortunate and get by nicely. We also saved like mad when OH worked to buy our apartment mortgage free. Something we were only able to do because our rent was paid.

If OH can get sabbatical, what do you have to lose?