.Ariel.

A conversation with a friend got me wondering, if one parent is Italian and the other British, and the British parents wants to leave Italy (ie they split up), what happens to the kid? Is the Brit parent allowed to leave, or only if they have full custody? Would the LO come back during the hols etc.

TestaRossa

I don't know how it applies to EU nationals but I know from American women that have married and then divorced with kids they have found it almost impossible to leave the country and go to the US with their kids. I even think the courts here award custody to the Italian parent irrespective of sex, but that could just be in the case of this one person I know, but I don't think so.

Having said that in the UK it is the other way around - the parent who has custody has to get permission from the other parent to leave country. Should clarify, this was under English law - the ex-wife of one friend couldn't even go to Scotland without his permission with their kids.

Lorna at Vicenza

I can speak for two english friends ......... both british mothers though.

case 1. English girl married to an Italian - small child -less than official school age, decided to go back home for various reasons but mainly marriage breakdown and family support in UK. She just upped and left one day with kid. Husband contacted her and she told him "no life for us there as single mother and child so I have come back".

He was not very wordly wise and was distraught but not legally inclined. By the time he did decide to make a move it was because his friends had told him that he could get her done for basically kidnapping and removing a minor.

Don't know how she found out that he was going to do something about this but she managed to convince Uk courts that he was a threat and when the poor old guy did arrive in the Uk one day to see his daughter - just as a holiday - she had basically convinced everyone that he was mafia inclined and was going to kidnap the child back and she actually got an injunction out on him.

Poor old guy gets sent back here, has chats with lawyers and realises how much it will cost to obtain some kind of legal rights to child and visiting rights and process kidnapping charges .......... battles for a few years and kind of gives up. Especially in light of day that ex-wife has since married again with another daughter and can provide a "good" family life rather than single father in Italy.

csae 2. English girl after 10 years of marriage and two kids discovers husband is an alcoholic. No grounds for taking kids away to the UK. Italian father has many rights. Kids born here and to Italian father. Much more than poor old Mum. Italian in-laws also very wealthy and very much part of "high social life" and know many lawyers etc.

Husband gets more aggressive as alcoholism gets worse. English mother knows only way out is to go back to Uk. She also knows that if she doesn't do it properly she'll be done for minor kidnapping. She makes an appointment with someone specilaised in family law in the city and unknown in the village. After several secret discussions they go before the judge and she with lawyer explain her case. Judge grants that she has temporary right to take both kids to the Uk whilst divorce proceedings begin. Judge also ruled that father could go to England at least twice a year and pay something in maintenance.


Italian law specifies a legal separation of three years before you can apply for divorce. When my friend had to come back here for the one hour in court after the three years she could testify to the fact that the father had only ever been to England once .... paid money maybe three times, had failed rehab - was still very drinky.


judge ruled that kids live in the Uk with mother. Father has rights to go over twice a year (has not yet done so) mother has to send them to stay with father and or grandparents once in every summer holiday. She did for the first two years. Kids are now saying "over my dead body am I going back to be stuck with them and eat pasta and melone and parma ham for two weeks."

There isn't anywhere stable for them to stay anymore as grandparents are too old - father unreliable so they have just not come back here. They are now 12 and 9.

Lorna at Vicenza

I should probably state at this point having thought about what I've written .......... as bizarre as it might seem .....

on both my child's identity cards it does say " can travel with father Massimo .........AND / OR Lorna Jane ...........


If if did not have that on the back I would not be able to take Chloe and Alex to England on my own ........... not without a British passport anyway or some kind of signed paper. And to get that bit extra on the back of their cards Massimo had to come to the Comune and sign his permission.

However ----- and this drove me a bit mad ........... he went to the questura one day to get his passport renewed and decided to get both kids put on his passport (just in case we ever go out of the EU) just like that with no need of any declaration or signature from myself.

Wholly hypocritical !!!!!!!!!!!!

.Ariel.

Thanks Testa + Lorna.

Those are some messy unfortunate stories. It must be horrible to be in such a situation. Interesting how you say Italian father has more rights than the mum - maybe because the kids were born here.

Lorna at Vicenza

as far as I am aware ..... and I haven't checked it out for a long time as I'm not planning on doing a runner ............. that seems to be the case. A child born in Italy to an Italian father seems to have more right to stay here than go back with a single british mother. As I said , it depends on how you go about it and what resistence the father puts up.

I do know that if I upped sticks and just buggered off it could all get quite technical and legal and nasty..........I'm not even married but it does seem that he has more rights over me if i ever wanted to take them out of Italy.

This is of course different for folks that stay and live in Italy. I have a male Italian friend in Veneto whose child moved to Messina with the mother no problem. He was granted so many visiting rights but could not afford to go to messina every weekend - nor pay for the child to come up here.

selinuntina

When DH went to america for work a few years ago I had to send a fax to the questura saying I was aware he was leaving the country and was fine with it.
My kids have both british and italian passports so never had any probs leaving the country.

Lorna at Vicenza

Not leaving the country for him - okay

what about you ?

and what about signoing the okay for him to take your kids away

What would happen if you wanted to take them elsewhere ?

selinuntina

well were in uk now so won't have these probs but ... can't ever imagine dh wanting to take the kids away by himself, he goes crazy after an hour alone with them !

LivingHere

I still don't understand the reasoning why British children can't be on a parent's passport. How is it more difficult to take a child who has its own passport? I have a different surname to my children and have never been asked anything when I travel with them alone. Superficially they don't look like me at all. I am half indian and it shows. They are whiter than white.

TestaRossa

All British kids used to be on their parents passport - my son's entry is still in mine but cancelled. But that is all it was - a line with his name and date of birth, nothing else, no picture. So I could have had anybody's boy with me! With their own passports it has their picture in so it can be checked against the child who is with you. I suppose the belief is if I were trying to kidnap him someone would have informed the police and passport control would be looking out for him, which without a picture I.D. is much harder.

selinuntina

The picture on my sons passport was taken when he was 3 months old, he's nearly 5 now and has changed a lot, looks nothing like him now !

TestaRossa

I know what you mean! But then his must be nearly expired anyway?

I sent a photo that was 12 months old for my daughter's and, not surprisingly, they made me send an up-to-date one.

But UK passport requirements are stricter than the US, which surprised me. Once someone has a US passport they don't have to have their photo's verified when they renew, like we do. When I went to get my photo signed by the vicar at the US church here they hadn't a clue what I was talking about! The vicar did because he was from Oz and they follow our rules being commonwealth.

selinuntina

*dashes upstairs to check expiry dates on passports*

TestaRossa

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