Britain and Europe
Jun 25th 2017, 6:31 am
#1
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Britain and Europe
Jun 26th 2017, 6:19 am
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Re: Britain and Europe
It's just been put on Youtube.
Last edited by Sancho; Jun 26th 2017 at 6:26 am.
Jun 26th 2017, 8:16 pm
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Re: Britain and Europe
I like the analogy of a tennis player who has resigned from the club because the fees are too high and he hates the rules but he is still desperate to play tennis. Mrs May has got herself into a tricky situation.
Jun 29th 2017, 2:31 pm
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Re: Britain and Europe
I haven't listened to all of it, just the first 15 minutes then bits and bobs and finally the last 10 minutes, but I'll make some comments.
I think he gives too much importance to Europe when he says it was decisive in the election victory of Tony Blair in 1997, or the Labour victory in 1974, or the fall of Thatcher in 1990.
Blair won in 1997 after 18 years of Tory rule. Memories are short and there were also millions of young voters who had no direct memory of the previous Labour government. That's why they accepted Blair's arguments that the 1970s Labour govt. had been dominated by the extreme left, which in reality never had the majority in the parliamentary party and certainly didn't determine Labour's policies. People wanted a change after years of privatisation, destruction of workers' rights etc. When Blair's sidekick Gordon Brown lost in 2010 it was because there had been no real change from Thatcherism. I don't think Europe was the main issue there.
Also in 1974, Labour won when the country was in the grip of the miners' strike: the miners (and other sectors before them) enjoyed wide support. It was a time of radicalisation as in Italy, France, the USA and other countries. Then too the Labour experience came to an end in 1979 when people's hopes had been disillusioned.
In 1990 Europe was certainly an issue between Thatcher and her colleagues, but she fell mainly because of the anti-polltax campaign.
In all three cases Bogdanor tends to forget the importance of all the other issues. I don't think Europe was always uppermost in people's minds.
Another point is confusion between two different kinds of opposition to EU membership. In the 1970s there was a left-wing opposition, which saw the EU/EEC as a club of the rich and a more efficient means of exploiting working people. I was part of this movement: we wanted a united Europe, but on a different basis. We called for a socialist Europe.
There was also a right-wing opposition, similar to the one that exists now. This opposition talks a lot of twaddle about national sovereignty, as if ordinary people enjoyed any "sovereignty" either in or out of the EU. It's just a front of extreme right parties like UKIP out to catch votes on any issue they find handy. Along with them, there is a faction of the Tories who want to maintain and strengthen trade with the USA, which is their real reason for opposing the EU and the euro - all the chat about independence is just a cover for dependence on the USA.
In last year's referendum it was difficult for people on the left to take part in a movement dominated by the right, unlike 1975, so the inconsistency of people like Corbyn is understandable, although it would have been better not to take sides and use the referendum campaign to say there was no solution for ordinary people inside or out. But Corbyn's recent success is again not only because of Europe; after all, the Labour Party in general was for Remaining, but was down in the polls, while they shouted down Corbyn because of the rest of his radical policies, which are the real reason for Labour's revival (see Glastonbury, anyone?!).
The right in Italy too (Salvini) talk about "sovereignty" because they don't want a Europe "dominated by Germany". But also in Italy itself the single country is dominated by the rich north. They'll never get equality this way (and don't want it anyway!).
Time to stop!
I think he gives too much importance to Europe when he says it was decisive in the election victory of Tony Blair in 1997, or the Labour victory in 1974, or the fall of Thatcher in 1990.
Blair won in 1997 after 18 years of Tory rule. Memories are short and there were also millions of young voters who had no direct memory of the previous Labour government. That's why they accepted Blair's arguments that the 1970s Labour govt. had been dominated by the extreme left, which in reality never had the majority in the parliamentary party and certainly didn't determine Labour's policies. People wanted a change after years of privatisation, destruction of workers' rights etc. When Blair's sidekick Gordon Brown lost in 2010 it was because there had been no real change from Thatcherism. I don't think Europe was the main issue there.
Also in 1974, Labour won when the country was in the grip of the miners' strike: the miners (and other sectors before them) enjoyed wide support. It was a time of radicalisation as in Italy, France, the USA and other countries. Then too the Labour experience came to an end in 1979 when people's hopes had been disillusioned.
In 1990 Europe was certainly an issue between Thatcher and her colleagues, but she fell mainly because of the anti-polltax campaign.
In all three cases Bogdanor tends to forget the importance of all the other issues. I don't think Europe was always uppermost in people's minds.
Another point is confusion between two different kinds of opposition to EU membership. In the 1970s there was a left-wing opposition, which saw the EU/EEC as a club of the rich and a more efficient means of exploiting working people. I was part of this movement: we wanted a united Europe, but on a different basis. We called for a socialist Europe.
There was also a right-wing opposition, similar to the one that exists now. This opposition talks a lot of twaddle about national sovereignty, as if ordinary people enjoyed any "sovereignty" either in or out of the EU. It's just a front of extreme right parties like UKIP out to catch votes on any issue they find handy. Along with them, there is a faction of the Tories who want to maintain and strengthen trade with the USA, which is their real reason for opposing the EU and the euro - all the chat about independence is just a cover for dependence on the USA.
In last year's referendum it was difficult for people on the left to take part in a movement dominated by the right, unlike 1975, so the inconsistency of people like Corbyn is understandable, although it would have been better not to take sides and use the referendum campaign to say there was no solution for ordinary people inside or out. But Corbyn's recent success is again not only because of Europe; after all, the Labour Party in general was for Remaining, but was down in the polls, while they shouted down Corbyn because of the rest of his radical policies, which are the real reason for Labour's revival (see Glastonbury, anyone?!).
The right in Italy too (Salvini) talk about "sovereignty" because they don't want a Europe "dominated by Germany". But also in Italy itself the single country is dominated by the rich north. They'll never get equality this way (and don't want it anyway!).
Time to stop!
Last edited by jonwel; Jun 29th 2017 at 2:39 pm.
Jun 29th 2017, 5:28 pm
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Re: Britain and Europe
I think the driver for Brexit is the introduction of a low tax economy with a correspondingly reduced welfare state. Without subsidies businesses will have to sink or swim.
Jun 30th 2017, 6:02 am
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Re: Britain and Europe
But do you think a country needs to leave the EU in order to carry out these policies? If you look at Greece, for example, I think the only thing Brussels cares about is that a country should balance its books - if that means sending everyone to rack and ruin, then so be it.
