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Old Feb 12th 2018, 5:49 am   #16
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

PMd with a link to some official documents for my grandfather
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 5:58 am   #17
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Default Re: Proving UK Citizenship by Descent

Thanks. So we know that your grandfather didn't become a British subject until after the end of WWII. What was the reason for your grandfather fleeing Germany? Do you know whether he was Jewish?
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 6:00 am   #18
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Thanks. So we know that your grandfather didn't become a British subject until after the end of WWII. What was the reason for your grandfather fleeing Germany? Do you know whether he was Jewish?
Yep, he was a German Jew who fled Germany from prosecution by the Nazis to provide information and ended up fighting for Britain in the Battle of Britain, was promoted through medals, so I'm guessing this is how he attained British citizenship.
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 6:07 am   #19
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Yep, he was a German Jew who fled Germany from prosecution by the Nazis to provide information and ended up fighting for Britain in the Battle of Britain, was promoted through medals, so I'm guessing this is how he attained British citizenship.
German nationality law is usually strict about dual citizenship; as a general rule those who wish to became German citizens are required to give up their previous citizenship and German citizens who acquired another citizenship automatically lose their German citizenship. Exceptions are made however for Germans who fled Germany during the Nazi era and either lost or were stripped of their citizenship by the German authorities at that time. They and their descendants are able to reclaim their German citizenship without having to renounce their existing citizenship. This means that you could claim German citizenship without it affecting your Australian citizenship.

The German Embassy in Canberra's website has more information about the process:

German Missions in Australia - Regaining German citizenship for former Germans deprived of their citizenship
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 6:12 am   #20
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German nationality law is usually strict about dual citizenship; as a general rule those who wish to became German citizens are required to give up their previous citizenship and German citizens who acquired another citizenship automatically lose their German citizenship. Exceptions are made however for Germans who fled Germany during the Nazi era and either lost or were stripped of their citizenship by the German authorities at that time. They and their descendants are able to reclaim their German citizenship without having to renounce their existing citizenship. This means that you could claim German citizenship without it affecting your Australian citizenship.

The German Embassy in Canberra's website has more information about the process:

German Missions in Australia - Regaining German citizenship for former Germans deprived of their citizenship
I can't thank you enough. As his grandson, I am not too far removed to be eligible for this?
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 1:44 pm   #21
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I can't thank you enough. As his grandson, I am not too far removed to be eligible for this?
No worries. You should have any problems; I know of an Australian with a German Jewish grandfather who gained his German passport through exactly this method.
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 1:59 pm   #22
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No worries. You should have any problems; I know of an Australian with a German Jewish grandfather who gained his German passport through exactly this method.
So big updates:

I have an incredible amount of documentation on my maternal grandfather. Original copies of:
  • Great grandfathers birth certificate, born to two Jewish parents, noted
  • Great grandfathers death certificate, cremated in a concentration camp, transportation information as well
  • Grandfathers birth certificate, two German/Jewish parents
  • Grandfather death certificate
  • All of my grandfathers medals which he begins receiving in the late 30's, ones for fighting in Luxembourg, France, Germany for Britain
  • Naturalisation papers for Grandfather and related official letters, swearing to become a British citizen in 1947. Includes details of change of name.
  • Grandfathers British Passport which also contains identification for my grandmother, says they are married and also details my mother (no photo though, only listed as a child)
  • Birth certificates for my mother (grandmother is Australian, later became a British citizen)
  • Marriage certificate of my mother and father
  • My birth certificate

I am collecting everything I can and getting the copies notarised while i contact the consulate here and try and find out any holes in my documentation. You've been a huge help for bringing this to my attention, I had some idea about my grandfather's history but never delved into it very much.

Can you see anything that I might be missed that your friend might have had? I'm reading that mostly it takes around a year to return with a decision, did it take that long for him?

Really appreciate your time!
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 2:05 pm   #23
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No worries. You should have any problems; I know of an Australian with a German Jewish grandfather who gained his German passport through exactly this method.
Also just wondering, was your friends grandfather material or paternal? It being my maternal grandfather should not really have a bearing on my case, they opened it up to the maternal side in the 70s?

It also shouldn't matter that my mother was not born at the time? She was not born until the late 50's.

I would just direct these questions to the consulate but it's midnight here, aha.

One more paranoid scenario would be that my mother has not claimed her German nationality, and she may have to claim that before I can claim mine?

Last edited by h3xtrooper; Feb 12th 2018 at 2:07 pm. Reason: More questions
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 2:07 pm   #24
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So big updates:

I have an incredible amount of documentation on my maternal grandfather. Original copies of:
  • Great grandfathers birth certificate, born to two Jewish parents, noted
  • Great grandfathers death certificate, cremated in a concentration camp, transportation information as well
  • Grandfathers birth certificate, two German/Jewish parents
  • Grandfather death certificate
  • All of my grandfathers medals which he begins receiving in the late 30's, ones for fighting in Luxembourg, France, Germany for Britain
  • Naturalisation papers for Grandfather and related official letters, swearing to become a British citizen in 1947. Includes details of change of name.
  • Grandfathers British Passport which also contains identification for my grandmother, says they are married and also details my mother (no photo though, only listed as a child)
  • Birth certificates for my mother (grandmother is Australian, later became a British citizen)
  • Marriage certificate of my mother and father
  • My birth certificate

I am collecting everything I can and getting the copies notarised while i contact the consulate here and try and find out any holes in my documentation. You've been a huge help for bringing this to my attention, I had some idea about my grandfather's history but never delved into it very much.

Can you see anything that I might be missed that your friend might have had? I'm reading that mostly it takes around a year to return with a decision, did it take that long for him?

Really appreciate your time!
That's a really amazing amount of documentation given the history. My partner's grandfather fled the Communist regime in Czechoslovakia after WWII and all we have for him are his Australian refugee papers. We've not even sure where his parents were from. I can't imagine you having any problems at all with your application. The only thing I would also add would be your grandparents' marriage certificate.
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 2:11 pm   #25
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Also just wondering, was your friends grandfather material or paternal? It being my maternal grandfather should not really have a bearing on my case, they opened it up to the maternal side in the 70s?

It also shouldn't matter that my mother was not born at the time? She was not born until the late 50's.
No, it shouldn't matter. Your mother would have gained German citizenship through your grandfather if he had not been stripped of it and by the time you were born German woman could also pass on their citizenship.

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I would just direct these questions to the consulate but it's midnight here, aha.

One more paranoid scenario would be that my mother has not claimed her German nationality, and she may have to claim that before I can claim mine?
She can do obviously but it's not mandatory for you to claim yours in the same way your grandfather didn't need to reclaim his before your mother could do.
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 2:15 pm   #26
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No, it shouldn't matter. Your mother would have gained German citizenship through your grandfather if he had not been stripped of it and by the time you were born German woman could also pass on their citizenship.



She can do obviously but it's not mandatory for you to claim yours in the same way your grandfather didn't need to reclaim his before your mother could do.
Fantastic mate, you've put my mind at ease for all that. I'm 99% sure that I also have my grandmother/grandfathers marriage certificate, I can't imagine why I wouldn't considering the rest of the stuff.

Thanks again, I'll post updates here I guess!
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 2:20 pm   #27
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Fantastic mate, you've put my mind at ease for all that. I'm 99% sure that I also have my grandmother/grandfathers marriage certificate, I can't imagine why I wouldn't considering the rest of the stuff.

Thanks again, I'll post updates here I guess!
Depending in which state/territory your mother was born in, Australian birth certificates usually show the marriage date and place of the parents. Queensland is a notable exception. I would however include the marriage certificate regardless.
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Old Feb 12th 2018, 2:34 pm   #28
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Depending in which state/territory your mother was born in, Australian birth certificates usually show the marriage date and place of the parents. Queensland is a notable exception. I would however include the marriage certificate regardless.
Ah, yep will update if I do have the marriage certificate, mother was born in NSW.
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Old Feb 13th 2018, 8:07 am   #29
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Just have some followup questions regarding some evidence.

Is it worth obtaining my grandfathers British service records to prove that he lived outside of Germany at any time between 27 November 1941 and 8 May 1945? The evidence I currently have that he was outside of Germany are his medals (France and German Star, the Defence Medal, some others) and a letter that details his experience escaping Germany when he was 19, so late 1930s. He lucked out and boarded a Freedom Train by chance, I think. His naturalisation papers state that he is officially granted to reside in London from Germany. There's no chance at all that he was in Germany after 27 November 1941, as he was designated for execution before that and escaped through the trains.

He would have been serving in the British forces as a British subject, a Sargent at 25 and by his medals it would appear that at some stage he returned to Germany to fight, but never returned to claim his German citizenship following the war. He would have been technically stateless if he was not in active service? He was definitely not a British citizen until 1947.

Also, my grandmother (his wife) is still alive and receives a pension from the German government as restitution for his persecution. I'll be including information on her pension in my application as well.

I don't even need to go to the Embassy in Sydney, I called today and only have to mail in documents, but it might take 18 months because of the Brexit, she said, aha.

EDIT: Also, am I correct in thinking that I would also be granted German citizenship via my great-grandfather as it's documented he was cremated in a concentration camp? I believe my grandfather actively sought out details of what happened to him and was only given full clarification from the German government in the 1970s, I have the letter as well.

EDIT: My grandmother was represented by the United Restitution Organisation, and that's how she began receiving her pension: "The United Restitution Organization was established in 1948 as a legal aid service to assist victims of Nazi persecution living outside Germany in making restitution and indemnification claims against Germany and Austria.". Maybe most of this claim would have details in a system somewhere and might go quicker?

Last edited by h3xtrooper; Feb 13th 2018 at 9:12 am. Reason: More more questions
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Old Feb 13th 2018, 1:29 pm   #30
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Just have some followup questions regarding some evidence.

Is it worth obtaining my grandfathers British service records to prove that he lived outside of Germany at any time between 27 November 1941 and 8 May 1945? The evidence I currently have that he was outside of Germany are his medals (France and German Star, the Defence Medal, some others) and a letter that details his experience escaping Germany when he was 19, so late 1930s. He lucked out and boarded a Freedom Train by chance, I think. His naturalisation papers state that he is officially granted to reside in London from Germany. There's no chance at all that he was in Germany after 27 November 1941, as he was designated for execution before that and escaped through the trains.

He would have been serving in the British forces as a British subject, a Sargent at 25 and by his medals it would appear that at some stage he returned to Germany to fight, but never returned to claim his German citizenship following the war. He would have been technically stateless if he was not in active service? He was definitely not a British citizen until 1947.
As a Jew he would have been stripped of his German citizenship in 1941 if not before, so yes, he would have been effectively stateless until 1947. I don't think it's worth obtaining your grandfather's military service records to submit with the application given you have all the relevant documentation.

Quote:
Also, my grandmother (his wife) is still alive and receives a pension from the German government as restitution for his persecution. I'll be including information on her pension in my application as well.
That sounds like a good idea.

Quote:
I don't even need to go to the Embassy in Sydney, I called today and only have to mail in documents, but it might take 18 months because of the Brexit, she said, aha.
The Irish Embassy in London is similarly swamped at the moment with applications from people claiming through their grandparents.

Quote:
EDIT: Also, am I correct in thinking that I would also be granted German citizenship via my great-grandfather as it's documented he was cremated in a concentration camp? I believe my grandfather actively sought out details of what happened to him and was only given full clarification from the German government in the 1970s, I have the letter as well.
You would have your citizenship "restored" through your grandfather since he is your closest relative but I would include that letter as well.

Quote:
EDIT: My grandmother was represented by the United Restitution Organisation, and that's how she began receiving her pension: "The United Restitution Organization was established in 1948 as a legal aid service to assist victims of Nazi persecution living outside Germany in making restitution and indemnification claims against Germany and Austria.". Maybe most of this claim would have details in a system somewhere and might go quicker?
If you include the details of your grandmother's pension then that may help the German authorities approve your claim. To be honest I think that you have more than enough documentation for them to successfully process it for you. Given how long it's taking I would just gather everything together, fill in the application form and send it off asap.
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