Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Old Jan 22nd 2008, 3:28 pm
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by BristolUK
A 'Sponsor' cannot be receiving Social Assistance (SA). Before we met, my student wife's ex husband had reneged on child support payments and 'disappeared' leaving her with no alternative but to claim SA to top up her p/t earnings.

Now obviously we knew she could not keep SA and be a 'Sponsor' but as I say, the agreement to sponsor would come later - according to the Guide and common sense. We kept the SA office informed to make sure she wasn't getting something not due and they were happy for it to continue.
See, this is a complicated case. There are plenty of applications (like ours) which didn't have complications like this. Just because you didn't realise your case wasn't a simple one, doesn't mean others are incapable of recognising when theirs is.
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Old Jan 22nd 2008, 3:46 pm
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

As has been said, a lot depends on the applicants abilities in preparing their case effectively. We are only likely to do it once, what worked for one, may not work for another. Someone else may interpret the directions differently from another.

In my opinion their is far more too it than reading instructions and filling in forms. The process needs to be understood. Research needs to be done, the appropriate supporting documentation needs to be gathered, in some cases other issues outside of the application need to be resolved, for some, business plans need to be prepared & submitted. When applying, we are not just filling in the blanks, we are preparing a case to CIC, asking to come into the country and also demonstrating that we are qualified and suitable.

This is all aside from the personal aspect of preparing for the upheaval of immigration.
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Old Jan 22nd 2008, 6:32 pm
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by bazzz
See, this is a complicated case. There are plenty of applications (like ours) which didn't have complications like this. Just because you didn't realise your case wasn't a simple one, doesn't mean others are incapable of recognising when theirs is.
But it was simple. What was really so complicated about it?

All that was needed was a do that bit first and then submit. That was all that messed things up.

None of the other stuff would have happened.
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Old Jan 22nd 2008, 9:30 pm
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by NewCanadian
And what basis or expertise you have to make such definite statement?

We have in this forum a former visa officer (Jim Humphries) who contributes his expertise here for as long, or maybe longer, as Andrew does. I haven't seen him ever discouraging anyone from using expert's assistance. I haven't seen him promoting DIY route either.

Are you former CIC officer with experience in assessing applications?

How many applications you have processed in past few years?

How many other applicants' cases you intimately know (not what they told you, but what have you seen in their files)?

It is crazy how many people who only know their own case (and maybe one or two of their friends) voice such strong opinions and give irresponsoble advise.

Maybe it is the time to put your money where your mouth is?

Many immigration experts provide money back guarantee (I know Andrew does) - are you willing to pay back fees and other expenses to people who took your advice mistakenly assuming that you are some kind of "expert" and got refused after years of lost hopes?

blah blah blah.....lol..who rattled your cage? And you're talking about money? huh? I thought this was justa chat forum, I didn't know people were in here soliciting for business and being paid for advice!

If people are so stupid as to mistakenly assume that anyone in here is an expert then they should be paying me! I mean please! This is just a chat forum with people expressing OPINIONS!!! Understand? It doesn't matter whether they're ill-informed or not because at the end of the day they are just OPINIONS. And if anyone is making serious life and immigration decisions on the OPINIONS of people they don't even know from a bar of soap then that's their own fault or call.

And as for Jim and Andrew? Who are they? I don't know them from Adam, they could be the local grocery boys having a laugh in here for all anyone knows ...lol...

So are you willing to get off that patronising high horse of yours and allow me to express an opinion or what?

It's my opinion. I am entitled to it. If you don't like it don't read it, simple as that.

Last edited by Elizabeth I; Jan 22nd 2008 at 9:47 pm.
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Old Jan 22nd 2008, 9:51 pm
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by chrisrymer
I downloaded all the relevant PNP forms and checklist last night and I was shocked at how few pages it all consisted of.

I am just wondering why people would need and immigration lawyer to help them?!

It seems pretty straight forward to me.

Is this just because I am looking at PNP as opposed to going through the points system. These Immigration Lawyers must know what they can get away with saying etc. and the right way to say it to give people more of a chance of getting in.

Just like an accountant is 'creative' with a companies books.

OR

Have I missed a 900 page application form somewhere
No you are just being unnecessarily smug and boastful
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Old Jan 22nd 2008, 9:58 pm
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by BristolUK
I touched on it in a previous post. I'm quite happy to give more detail. It shows what may go wrong. It's a bit long but it's really the only way to explain it all.

Ours was a 'straightforward' spousal sponsorship. The application was not missing any documents. We gave no incomplete or wrong information.

The CIC Guide said a sponsor would sign an agreement to be responsible for the sponsored person. That agreement would be specific to a particular situation and was not the same in all cases. That must mean that one is only an actual Sponsor from the time a sponsorship agreement is in place, ie only when it is signed/agreed upon. Is that fair to say? I think so.

One applies for a Power of Attorney, but one doesn't hold it until the document exists. One applies in advance for one's pension but one isn't a pensioner until pension age. One applies for a loan but one isn't a borrower until terms have been agreed/cash been advanced.

All these things happen after the application. The sponsorship agreement was supposed to be specific to the circumstances - as identified by the information on the application. Clearly it cannot be agreed at the time of the application as the details/conditions are not known at the time of the application.

A 'Sponsor' cannot be receiving Social Assistance (SA). Before we met, my student wife's ex husband had reneged on child support payments and 'disappeared' leaving her with no alternative but to claim SA to top up her p/t earnings.

Now obviously we knew she could not keep SA and be a 'Sponsor' but as I say, the agreement to sponsor would come later - according to the Guide and common sense. We kept the SA office informed to make sure she wasn't getting something not due and they were happy for it to continue.

So we eagerly completed the forms. We did it in Quebec where a different process was needed. Upon reading the Guide it was suggested that the medical report would be requested later.

We highlighted the existence of SA and the fact that it would be cancelled prior to Sponsorship agreement.

We expected them to say "all seems in order, just get the SA cancelled and confirm that when you return the enclosed Sponsorship agreement" - or maybe they'd say "we can't do it yet, cancel the SA and let us know you've done it" - or "here are your forms back - return them when you've cancelled the SA." Or even a phone call from them about it.

The first thing that happened is that CIC sent the entire application back and asked for the medical to be completed. So we did that.

Then came the sponsorship refusal because of the SA. Ironically we had cancelled the SA anyway.

I asked them to reconsider given the SA no longer existed. (I also advised the CHC in London that they may hear Sponsorship had been refused because of SA which had since been cancelled.)

CIC wrote back to say "Sorry we can't as it existed on the day of application. If your circumstances have changed, feel free to apply again."

We applied again.

"Sorry, you cannot apply for sponsorship again as the application is still outstanding." Even though we had their 'refusal' letter?

Then the CHC wrote asking for proof SA was cancelled. This suggested all was back on track given the letters I'd written to both offices. We sent the proof and I was then asked for the 'police certificate'...further suggesting everything was progressing nicely.

Eventually PR was refused because sponsorship was unsuccessful.

So right from the start they knew it was doomed to failure but still returned the original application pack and insisted the medical be done. Then the CHC followed all those logical steps when there was no chance of success.

We were guilty of over eagerness, perhaps. We could have waited and cancelled the SA first. But remember, all indications were that the actual sponsorship agreement would come later - after SA had been cancelled.

I consider that straightforward. If they didn't think so, a phone call from them or a letter as I mentioned above would have clarified matters.

Guess what. During the process, CIC did write apologising for their error in refusing and inviting a new application and then saying I couldn't re-apply etc.

They also admitted they should have written to say that flexibility on the issue of circumstances on the day the form was signed was NOT possible and that they should have given us the option of delaying the application.

Clearly, had they done that, we would obviously have delayed it a few days but they have done nothing to right that situation. I complained to the Immigration Minister but my letter was simply passed on to CIC and a standard pre-prepared letter about procedure was sent. No accountability at all.

Now you can argue we jumped the gun but remember, we were eager. Also, the response they agree they should have made was one possibility we anticipated.

I have since experienced most Canadian Government offices are tied up in red tape.

Wow, right up until I read this last line alarm bells were ringing in my head with a neon sign "bureaucracy." It definitely sounds like you were a victim of bureacracy and red tape.

Sorry to hear this about your experience. Have you had any joy since? What happened? Did you get a lawyer to argue your case?
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Old Jan 22nd 2008, 11:27 pm
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by Elizabeth I
Sorry to hear this about your experience. Have you had any joy since? What happened? Did you get a lawyer to argue your case?
We did take legal advice from a firm in Montreal when it was going wrong. The woman we saw wanted to take it up but her boss said an appeal would take years and we'd be better off making a new application through them. When he left the room, she basically said "look, the problem has been removed...you're obviously capable of doing it on your own...do it again and you'll save our fees."

That's what we did and I had another go at getting them to change their mind, enclosing a letter with the new application. That was ignored once again....but it all worked - eventually - after duplicate fees on the application, medical, police cert, photos. It was nearly 3 years instead of the original 6 months. Inconvenient in that it held up opening bank accounts, building credit etc.

Those additional costs for the second application would have practically paid for the legal fees quoted to us originally. The extra would have been worth it to have had it all finished by the 6 months it should have taken.

We're all settled in NB now. I was a civil servant in the UK for 30 years. Form filling didn't bother me at all. I believed I knew about bureaucracy. I now know differently.
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Old Jan 22nd 2008, 11:39 pm
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by BristolUK
We did take legal advice from a firm in Montreal when it was going wrong. The woman we saw wanted to take it up but her boss said an appeal would take years and we'd be better off making a new application through them. When he left the room, she basically said "look, the problem has been removed...you're obviously capable of doing it on your own...do it again and you'll save our fees."

That's what we did and I had another go at getting them to change their mind, enclosing a letter with the new application. That was ignored once again....but it all worked - eventually - after duplicate fees on the application, medical, police cert, photos. It was nearly 3 years instead of the original 6 months. Inconvenient in that it held up opening bank accounts, building credit etc.

Those additional costs for the second application would have practically paid for the legal fees quoted to us originally. The extra would have been worth it to have had it all finished by the 6 months it should have taken.

We're all settled in NB now. I was a civil servant in the UK for 30 years. Form filling didn't bother me at all. I believed I knew about bureaucracy. I now know differently.

Blimey, 3 yrs??? Sheesh, that's some experience. What do you think you would have done differently if you were to do that again? How could you have avoided this?
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Old Jan 22nd 2008, 11:39 pm
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Inconvenient in that it held up opening bank accounts, building credit etc.
Loads here have opened bank accounts and started building credit without even having PR yet let alone having an address in the country so I don't see why the delay in your PR application did the above.
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Old Jan 22nd 2008, 11:43 pm
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by YYZlover
Loads here have opened bank accounts and started building credit without even having PR yet let alone having an address in the country so I don't see why the delay in your PR application did the above.
Yeah, it's easy to open a bank account in Canada, I opened one when I was on holiday, piece of cake.
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Old Jan 22nd 2008, 11:51 pm
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by Elizabeth I
Blimey, 3 yrs??? Sheesh, that's some experience. What do you think you would have done differently if you were to do that again? How could you have avoided this?
That sounds like the sort of thing asked by UK civil service promotion boards.

This has not been my only experience of Canadian Red tape. I don't want to sound bitter about it, so I must add that the NB provincial government offices have impressed me hugely.

Knowing what I now know, I would have cancelled the SA first and applied without having to mention it. I feel sure that had I sought legal advice first, that would have been suggested too.

Originally Posted by YYZlover
Loads here have opened bank accounts and started building credit without even having PR yet let alone having an address in the country so I don't see why the delay in your PR application did the above.
Yes, I've heard that here and other forums too. But I approached at least 4 Canadian banks (including some in Montreal where one would think it was more likely) and they all said PR was needed first.
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Old Jan 23rd 2008, 12:01 am
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by BristolUK
That sounds like the sort of thing asked by UK civil service promotion boards.

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Old Jan 23rd 2008, 12:04 am
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Yes, I've heard that here and other forums too. But I approached at least 4 Canadian banks (including some in Montreal where one would think it was more likely) and they all said PR was needed first.
CIBC even have "opening account from abroad" in the options when sending them a question.

Guess you went to the wrong banks.
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Old Jan 23rd 2008, 12:11 am
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by BristolUK
I approached at least 4 Canadian banks (including some in Montreal where one would think it was more likely) and they all said PR was needed first.

That's weird, I'm surprised to hear this. I just walked into the RBC in Vancouver whilst I was on holiday and told them that I wanted to open an account because one day I'd be immigrating and they said "ok." I hadn't even made my PR application at that stage. But they just needed 2 pieces of ID and did it very promptly. They went out of their way to be helpful and assist actually, I was very surprised by their excellent service because I found it even better than my own bank at home here in NZ.
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Old Jan 23rd 2008, 12:14 am
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Default Re: Why use an Immigration Lawyer

Originally Posted by BristolUK

This has not been my only experience of Canadian Red tape. I don't want to sound bitter about it.

I don't think you sound bitter, I've read a lot about tricky Canadian red tape and heavy bureacracy, I think it must be a very real phenomena.
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