PMM

Hi

In an earlier thread I said that with the new rules for Skilled workers, that basically there had to be a new "list of qualifying occupations" I may be wrong and have to eat my words with some of the information that is now appearing.

Jason Kenney tweeted earlier that there would not be a "list" which seems strange, but there is a report from an Ontario Government Round Table which released it's report on 05/10/12. One of the interesting sections is:

"The province working with the federal government in designing the Expression of Interest (EOI) model of immigration which the federal government has recently announced that it intends to implement. This model, which is currently in use in New Zealand, adds a preliminary application phase whereby those seeking to immigrate to Canada submit an EOI that contains their personal information to the Canadian government, and immigration authorities invite the most promising EOI applicants to submit a full application along with proof of qualifications."

I found the following Kenney quote of EOI from April/12.

"Don’t you think we owe it to those people to be up front about their chances in Canada? And finally, we intimated in the budget that we will be working towards something like a system based on what we call an ‘expression of interest,’ where applicants will eventually go into a large pool of qualified immigration applicants for Canada, giving us their consent to share their applications with employers and indeed provincial governments ,so that those employers can come into the pool of qualified immigrant applicants and do their international labour recruitment from within that pool. "

So maybe everyone with 67 points will be able to apply with experience in NOC A, B or O as FSW, but only the cream will be skimmed from the top? Similar to Australia's proposal

"The Skilled Migrant Selection Register

The Australian Government has decided on a major reform in the way Australia selects skilled migrants,

the Skilled Migrant Selection Register (SkillSelect). SkillSelect will build upon and draw together the suite of reforms to the skilled migration program over the past three years. In doing so it will deliver the skills Australia needs by matching the best and brightest migrants to the available places in the migration program.

SkillSelect will be an electronic system based upon a two-stage process. Prospective applicants first submit claims for skilled migration through an online EOI and subsequently may be invited to make a visa application. This is a significant change from the current situation, as applicants for independent or state or territory sponsored migration will be required to receive an invitation in order to lodge a visa application.

Once invited, SkillSelect will ensure a match between the number of applicants and the number of available program places. This will result in streamlined processing times."

I guess that we shall have to wait and see.

mandymoochops

wow so it almost seems like a lottery that you won't know whether ot not you have been chosen - until you are chosen, if that makes sense.

Jim Humphries

We used to use pre-application questionnaires (PAQs) and this idea sounds like they are returning to it. PAQs were fee free and those who seemed to meet the criteria of the day were sent full application kits while the remainder were discouraged. PAQs were not a compulsory step so one could apply directly without going through that stage.

helcat12

Interesting information, Jim!

I would expect them to make the questionnaire compulsory this time, though, otherwise it won't help much with keeping down the backlog of applications.

You know what people are like.
The sensible people will use the free PAQ to find out their chances early, but if a potential applicant thinks that they might not get selected if they send the PAQ, then they will just go straight to the full pack application stage anyway in some flawed logic that they stand a better chance that way.

"And finally, we intimated in the budget that we will be working towards something like a system based on what we call an ‘expression of interest,’ where applicants will eventually go into a large pool of qualified immigration applicants for Canada, giving us their consent to share their applications with employers and indeed provincial governments ,so that those employers can come into the pool of qualified immigrant applicants and do their international labour recruitment from within that pool. "
It sounds from this as if the EOI just gets you into a pool from which employers select and that is what gets you the approval.
That would take the choice of area out of the hands of the immigrant completely and make it a bit like PNP but at the Federal level.

They might still have to do something else for professionals such as doctors, nurses, dentists, GPs , teachers and other such professionals who might be in demand who are not employed by private employers or who are in regulated professions, though.

This is going to upset a lot of potential applicants who were waiting for the new 'list', I think.

Bucks_Family

And how long would a potential immigrant linger in the pool, treading water as it were, waiting to be picked?

Makes me think of this..

james.mc

A pretty reasonable image portraying what has been debated in the above posts.

Surely there should be some kind of indicator as to when the immigration process might begin, or people could be in within a few months or 5 years and yet have no clue as to where they might fall in that timeline. Would that be any better than the current system?

Paul Wildy

Hi PMM

This is an interesting discussion that I would like to join in...

I agree that there won’t be an occupation list. It was a temporary measure to severely restrict the intake of new applications during the main period of backlog reduction and the idea of an occupation list has proved quite unpopular with most employers and provincial governments because it allows such a limited range of skill sets into the country. And as you say CIC have now made it official that there will be no list.

Clearly they do still need a mechanism to be able to adjust the flow of applications up and down as needed. And I believe that the minimum language benchmark will be the primary tool used to do that. In the details of the proposed new Skilled Worker Program published in the Canada Gazette in July it is made clear that the Minister will have the ability to adjust the minimum language benchmark required... “Under the proposed Regulations, the Minister would fix the language threshold according to criteria set out in the Regulations. The Regulations would also provide that the Minister would communicate that threshold publicly. Initially, it is anticipated that the threshold would be set at Canadian Language Benchmark 7”. So this is their primary mechanism for controlling the flow of applications. The new point score system is structured in such a way that the Minister announces a minimum benchmark (7 initially) and points are awarded not based on what benchmark someone achieves in a test; but based on what level ABOVE the (adjustable) minimum benchmark. For example to get 24 points for English you have to score 2 benchmark levels above the minimum in each of Listening, Reading, Writing and Speaking.

This is actually quite an effective mechanism for controlling the number of people who pass or fail the point score. Although the new point score system seems like great news for anyone who speaks fluent English (or French) it is actually quite difficult to pass the point score if you don’t. For example someone aged 45 with a Bachelor’s degree who has 6+ years skilled experience, speaks fluent English and is married with a spouse who speaks English gets 67 points and only just passes. Once they turn 46 they no longer have enough points. And that’s with perfect English. Someone who is younger (say age 37) with a Bachelor’s degree and who has reasonable English but not quite at Language Benchmark level 7 would not pass. So whilst applicants from English (or French) speaking countries have been given a fantastic opportunity here, more than half of Canada’s immigrant intake comes from just 3 source countries: China, India and the Philippines. So in practice these new language criteria will have a massive impact on the number of people who will be able to qualify for the Skilled Worker Program. Hence there shouldn't be a need for a further restriction such as an occupation list as well.

The idea of an “Expression of Interest model” being implemented is a really interesting one but my personal view is that we will not see this just yet (and possibly not at all). And here’s why I say that:

In February 2012 the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Immigration published a report and this was the first step towards the redesign of the Skilled Worker Program. In it the committee discussed 4 possible options for limiting Skilled Worker intake:
1) A two-stage approach, where the Government could select from a pool of applicants that met initial eligibility criteria (the EOI model)
2) Charge higher processing fees
3) Adjust the pass mark required for Federal Skilled Workers
4) Amend the points system to favor young immigrants proficient in English or French

(Of course we now know that the option they actually chose was option 4 – and the new points system has since been published in the Canada Gazette.)

Then in April 2012 the Federal Budget made included the following text “Government will explore with provinces, territories and employers approaches to developing a pool of skilled workers who are ready to begin employment in Canada. To ensure that immigrants are ready to work, the assessment of educational credentials will be strengthened and the federal skilled worker point system will be reformed to reflect the importance of younger immigrants with Canadian work experience and better language skills.”

So there is the mention of the “pool” of applications that might be chosen from but they do say they are just going to explore it as a possibility.

The next major event is a press release by CIC in August and the proposed regulatory changes published in the Canada Gazette. And the new Skilled Worker program is summarized by the following introduction: “Update the FSWC by re-balancing the points among existing criteria, introducing mandatory language thresholds, requiring an educational credential assessment at the time of application if the educational credential submitted is from a foreign jurisdiction, streamlining the arranged employment process, and reducing the potential for fraudulent job offers under the Arranged Employment factor”

No mention of an EOI model or “application pool” in the above text. And we do know that the other changes (new points system and credential assessment) are being adopted. I think if there was going to be an EOI model anytime soon it would have been announced at this time.

The fly in the ointment is that in October Ontario’s Expert Round-table on Immigration published their final report which discusses extensively the idea of an EOI model. Their report is based on discussions held over many months during 2012. Possibly these discussions took place before the official announcements in August and therefore I think we could conceivably conclude that some of these recommendations might already be out of date when published. What they are really saying in this Round-table report is that if there is an EOI model then they want to be involved in helping to design it.

But I don’t think we will see it anytime soon. I also think it would be overkill – too restrictive. It will already be hard for many applicants to meet the language requirement and point score under the new rules so the idea of then having applications go into a pool for employers to choose from would result in very low numbers of Skilled Workers actually moving to Canada. From my experience of dealing with employers they all have skills shortages but are often still not very proactive at trying to bring immigrants to Canada to work for them. Let’s not forget that the 2012 target for skilled worker applications (and presumably 2013 will be similar) is nearly 60,000 per year. And when the backlog is cleared these will all have to be new people who apply rather than from existing inventory. So the process can’t be too restrictive therefore as the Government already acknowledges that Canada is in a “race for talent” with other countries such as Australia and the USA.

PMM

Hi



1. There will be an overall cap, Kenney has stated that. Lets set for 10K in Federal skilled worker, there will be a separate stream for skilled trades(men) another 5-10K maybe?
2. Since the Request for Proposal for credential evaluation has gone out in the past month or so, I have to assume that everyone will have to have an evaluation for NOC O and A. Most skilled trades fall into NOC B.
3. So if on January 1, Sydney receives 10K applications with credential evaluation and IELTs level 6 in all 4 areas, and those applications are all NOC 2173, what is the Dept. going to do? Look at the Investor applications before they were closed, they got to the cap within 7 days.
4. Canada has no need and couldn't absorb 10K worth of Computer programmers in a year, so there will have to be some sort of system to balance which applications will be processed. Will those that don't make it into the Cap, be referred to the Provinces?
5. You also have to consider "Politics" Immigration has been a sort of plaything for various political parties since Christ was an oarsman on the Ark. The liberal lowered the points from 75 to 67 in 2003, think this would help their cause in "votes from the ethnic community" What happened 800K backlog. With language and credential being a critical factor, I can't see the Tories allowing the Immigration program become Euro/NA-Centric and shutting out the Asia Immigrants, which has topped the list of Immigrants for at least the last 15 years.
6. Whether you like/dislike Kenney (better known as Curry in a Hurry) he is probably the first Immigration Minister in the past 20 years who has actually taken an interest in the Department, and not used it for an immediate stepping to bigger and better depts. Although he probably does have his eye on the leadership of the Tories. He has tried to make the Dept. responsive to what Canada needs in the way of Immigration. Not always successfully, but at least has tried.
7. Government Depts are like an elephant, once it moves in one direction, even if it is off a cliff, it is very difficult to make it change direction. With CIC and other Depts. there is still some of the attitude, "of we have always done it this way and can't see a reason to change" With the cut in resources a lot of the choices for emigrants has been off loaded onto the provinces. Some do a much better job than others, but the churning of some PNP jobs, doesn't make a lot of sense. With the prairie provinces continually bringing in Truckers for instance. Drive for 6 months, get PNP nomination, get PR, move onto something better. Same as BC with it's hospitality PNP, how many applicants will remain as servers/front hotel desk, once they receive PR?The provinces should be looking for Immigrants who move into jobs that have longer term prospects.
8. So I guess that we can guess what will happen in January, as per the Chinese curse "may you live in interesting times"

helcat12

Obviously I defer to the greater expertise here but I wonder if they will run the EOI as an additional entry stream.

The old FSW Cat 2 (through which we successfully applied) was open to all sorts of abuse and was very long-winded.
As Paul has said, Canadian employers are not especially active about looking for foreign workers to fill their skill shortages. Maybe this is because the process for FSW Cat 2 took so long and many applicants chose to stay in their country of origin while the application was processed. We risked the LMO/TWP route and had to go through a second LMO and TWP application after 1 year, which was risky and worrying. This would also put off many an applicant.

A serious problem with FSW Cat 1 as was, I think, is that it allowed immigrants to apply with outdated skills (only needed to be 1 year within the last 10 years) and it allowed them to go anywhere in Canada once they had been successful, regardless of where the jobs in the NOC under which they applied existed.

From reading this forum for the last few years, along with others such as canadavisa (which is primarily applicants from non-English speaking countries such as those mentioned by Paul), it has become clear to me that most FSW Cat1 applicants do very little, if anything about job hunting prior to their arrival in Canada.
They decide where to settle based on many other factors, including the weather but rarely on research about whether there is work in their chosen field there. This was especially true of the canadavisa bunch due to the difficulty they often had with finances and getting travel visas.

So, from the p.o.v of effectively addressing skills shortages, Cat 1 was rubbish and Cat 2 worked somewhat but only if the applicant was prepared to get to Canada and start work on a TWP, otherwise they could be 18 months too late for their job.

PNP is a better system all round from the p.o.v of employers and the Canadian government, as it delivers skilled workers to where there are jobs for them, but it does require a job offer first.
That seriously disadvantages applicants who struggle to get visas to travel to Canada on job hunting trips i.e. those from certain countries.

The EOI method would give an opportunity for employers and potential candidates to find one another without the applicant having to travel to Canada on job hunting trips which may prove fruitless.

It would provide a non-risk way for applicants to apply for immigration, safe in the knowledge that there was a job waiting for them when they got here.

It would allow employers to essentially use the government as a recruitment agent to whittle down applicants for them and presumably the pre-screening would make the arrival of the immigrant worker much quicker than the old AEO route.

The downsides of this EOI route are all for the applicant, really.
It would be possibly slow for the applicant while they waited for an employer to pick them up from the pool and crucially, they would have to go where the jobs were located and not to where they imagined they might want to live.

I expect now that the language criteria have been tightened so much, the Canadian government will want to offer a route where applicants who might not make the points without a job offer can put themselves forward for employment.
If they catch a few good ones this way, then all well and good.
If they have a lot of no-hopers idling in their 'job pool', it is no big deal as it won't slow anyone else up.

I think they might just implement this as a way to appease those who will miss out now that the points rules have changed, allowing Canada to look inclusive (avoiding allegations of racism and discrimination) without actually committing to processing any of the people they are excluding from the other routes.

PMM

Hi


[QUOTE=helcat12;10349912]Obviously I defer to the greater expertise here but I wonder if they will run the EOI as an additional entry stream.

The old FSW Cat 2 (through which we successfully applied) was open to all sorts of abuse and was very long-winded.
As Paul has said, Canadian employers are not especially active about looking for foreign workers to fill their skill shortages. Maybe this is because the process for FSW Cat 2 took so long and many applicants chose to stay in their country of origin while the application was processed. We risked the LMO/TWP route and had to go through a second LMO and TWP application after 1 year, which was risky and worrying. This would also put off many an applicant.

[snipped]

The FSW2 with the AEO is being done away with, according to the Gazette publication

" All other applicants must submit a foreign educational credential assessment provided by a designated organization to demonstrate that their educational credential is equivalent to a Canadian educational credential.

Streamlining the arranged employment process and reducing the potential for fraudulent job offers. The evaluation of the FSWC showed that people who immigrate with a valid job offer do very well in Canada, earning 79% more in wages in the first three years after arrival than people without arranged employment. However, it also demonstrated that a more rigorous assessment of the employer and job offer is needed to curb fraud. Stakeholders also called on CIC to improve overall processing times of applications with arranged employment, both at Human Resources and Skills Development Canada (HRSDC) and CIC.

The specific objectives of this particular proposed amendment are (1) to increase the integrity of the arranged employment factor by enhancing the genuineness assessment and labour market impact through the addition of measures such as the requirement that employers demonstrate that they have tried to first recruit and train Canadians for an available position; and (2) to improve labour market responsiveness by providing a faster and more streamlined process for employers and applicants.

With the proposed changes, employers would be required to apply for a labour market opinion (LMO) to HRSDC, whether it is in support of a temporary work permit application and/or a permanent residence application. Eliminating the arranged employment opinion (AEO) and replacing it with the LMO is intended to reduce the burden on employers in the event the worker seeks to apply for permanent residence concurrently with a temporary work permit application. Using all rather than some of the LMO assessment factors already used for the Temporary Foreign Worker Class (TFWC) would enable a consistent and streamlined process for applicants and employers. These factors include the labour market impact of the entry of the foreign workers as it relates for example to wages, working conditions, recruitment efforts, labour shortages, and the genuineness of the job offer and the employer. The LMO would reduce the potential for fraudulent job offers, thus contributing to improved program integrity, and ensure that the job offer meets broader Canadian labour market objectives. Returning employers with good program compliance records may be eligible for accelerated LMO processing. FSWC applicants with a positive or neutral LMO from HRSDC could be awarded up to 15 points on the selection grid.

helcat12

Most of the other FSW Cat 2s I spoke to were already in Canada on LMO approved TWP just as my OH was, mainly because the companies understandably couldn't wait for the protracted processing of the PR to be completed for the post to be filled.
So in effect, the applicants were already abandoning AEO and using the LMO route anyway out of necessity.
But last year LMO processing times shot up, here in BC at any rate, from 3 weeks to over 16 weeks because of the changes they made amalgamating offices.
That seemed to suggest that the LMO process was not seen to be important and that they were shifting resources away from LMO processing.
If they saw LMO as being the best way to ensure that job offers were legitimate and that employers had made all attempts to recruit from their available Canadians but at the same time wanted to please employers, then why make this change that quadrupled the waiting time for the LMO result?

As for fraud, if what I have read on canadavisa is any proof, it was actually FSW Cat 1 and family class which were the main focus for fraud once the AEO time increased, with false claims of kinship and false work experience claims being made to satisfy the requirements.
From what I have heard, there were already incidences of submitting fraudulent language test results too, so even that isn't safe.

nikki dreaming

wow, for someone deferring to the greater expertise you must have had a lot of spare time on your hands this afternoon

mandymoochops

If fraudulent applications were the majority then you might have a point. Luckily they are not (and i'm talking applications in general not just from specific areas) - what the powers that be have to do is to come up with a solution that best fits 1st) Canadas needs 2nd) procedural fairness for every applicant and 3rdly) the least opportunity for fraud.

People will exploit whatever systems they can if they want something enough. its the old "you can please some of the people all of the time" scenario. Question is, what people are they trying to please? if you bear in mind immigration is not a right.

The4BellsLondon

Waggle

Some interesting points.

Firstly with no way to limit the number of applications coming in from any given NOC experience, I think the entire cap could fill on the first day.

Let's say they have a cap of 10k, and 30k applications arrive on their doorstep (as well as a hefty queue of ppl outside ready to hand in their apps, or apps of ppl who have employed them to do this) - how do they decide which of those apps are opened and processed? Luck of the draw?

If they don't implement some kind of EOI by January I think it's going to be a turkey shoot on the day the applications open.

With regards PNP staying until they get PR and then moving on, I thought PNP were obliged to live and work within the province which nominated them for a number of years?

Wayne.