victorfoxtrot

Ok here's the deal. Received my COPR back in February and landed on 26th Feb. Was advised the PR card would arrive in 4-6 weeks, but looking on the CIC website it is saying 35 working days. Which by my calculations means I should expect it to arrive week commencing 16th April at the very earliest.

I got offered a job this week, which I have accepted and my start date is 23 April. The reason for the long lead time is that my partner and I (he's Canadian) want to squeeze in a quick vacation to Cuba prior to me starting. Employer has agreed. Am I crazy to consider taking a holiday without having my PR card? All I would have is the COPR which is stapled in the passport, and yes I realise it does say NOT VALID FOR TRAVEL. I read somewhere on here that if I were to travel with Air Canada, that according to their rules (I checked their website), as I'm from a visa-exempt country (I'm a UK cit), that I am ok to fly back to Canada with just my passport. Presumably then I will get a ticking off upon arrival at Toronto Pearson. I'm guessing it is best to avoid Air Transat, West Jet etc at all costs? FWIW I do have a trip booked to the UK in July - I could take proof of that ticket with me to show I intend on leaving......but then again I am PR, so why would I need to.

Would appreciate people's thoughts/experiences before I press the purchase button. Thanks in advance.

exenglishman

surely worst case you can just enter as a visitor?

victorfoxtrot

I don't think it is the Immigration Officer so much that i have to worry about - because upon arrival in Toronto, I'll show passport, COPR - and they'll be able to see on the system I am a landed PR. I'm assuming I will get a ticking off for having travelled without the PR card, but my concern is boarding the plane in Cuba - THAT could well be an issue. They could potentially refuse me permission to board. Just weighing up the risks.

Jim Humphries

If you are a Brit then you do not need a visa to enter Canada so you you will be allowed to board and then you show your COPR on arrival to the Canadian Border Service officer.

christmasoompa

http://britishexpats.com/wiki/Perman...nt_Card-Canada

Former Lancastrian

I really really hate this question arising I wish CIC & CBSA would get their act together and deal with it.
Basically if you can prove to CBSA when you land in Canada that you are a PR then you will be admitted.
But the problem area is not landing in Canada its BOARDING the commercial carrier outside Canada.
These are taken straight from the CIC website
Permanent residents returning to Canada by airplane, boat, train or bus must show a valid PR Card or travel document before boarding. The following application is for permanent residents outside of Canada who need proof of their status so they can return to Canada. Use this travel document if you have lost your documents showing your permanent residence status.

The Permanent Resident Card is the official proof of your status as a permanent resident in Canada.
This wallet-sized plastic card is required for all permanent residents of Canada seeking to re-enter Canada on a commercial carrier (airplane, boat, train or bus).

These statements make no mention of TRV or non TRV requiring countries.
The PR card is a prescribed document as is a passport.

This is taken from IRPA section 31
Status document

31. (1) A permanent resident and a protected person shall be provided with a document indicating their status.

Marginal note:Effect

(2) For the purposes of this Act, unless an officer determines otherwise

(a) a person in possession of a status document referred to in subsection (1) is presumed to have the status indicated; and

(b) a person who is outside Canada and who does not present a status document indicating permanent resident status is presumed not to have permanent resident status.

This is taken from ENF Manual 27
ENF 27 Permanent Resident Card
2006-01-26 10
A transporter must, at the time of boarding, examine the documents of all persons it carries to Canada to ensure that they are the documents prescribed in R259. The transporter must refuse to allow any improperly documented person to board a vehicle destined for Canada.
The PR card became a prescribed document when R259(f) came into force on December 31, 2003, pursuant to R365(3). Permanent residents outside Canada who are not in possession of a PR card (or travel document) will otherwise be unable to satisfy a transportation company as to their obligation to allow boarding only to passengers with prescribed documents in accordance with A148.

This is the section of the act that causes so much confusion
Marginal note:Obligation of operators of vehicles and facilities

148. (1) A person who owns or operates a vehicle or a transportation facility, and an agent for such a person, must, in accordance with the regulations,

(a) not carry to Canada a person who is prescribed or does not hold a prescribed document, or who an officer directs not be carried;

If you are outside Canada without a PR card then you will be dealing with the airline staff not CIC/CBSA.
I wish someone would take this to court so we could have a legal ruling on it.

By all means travel without a PR card but again you will be dealing with airline staff in another country not CIC/CBSA staff so good luck.

iaink

A-Cs website no longer makes mention of "visa waiver" passports....


I would check and double check with the carriers. Legally it may be the same situation, but in my mind its a very different practical situation than returning from the UK on a plane with 300 people also carrying only UK passports. Personally I think its potentially asking for trouble far more than say returning from the UK without a PR card.

Canadas a great big country, why not just go check out some other part of Canada on vacation this time around?

FlyingDutchman6666

I would keep Ian's advice in mind. Some check-in staff on the Cuba-Canada route may never even have encountered a Brit before. If something is outside their comfort zone, they may well deny boarding first, and ask questions later.

I tend to fly Gatwick-Toronto on a very unusual passport for that route. On the UK side, check-in staff always need to consult their database to see whether I require a visa or not. Although the passport is 100% fine for the route, it certainly attracts a lot more scrutiny compared to travelling on a departure country passport. On the Canadian side, I have encountered check-in staff seriously questioning whether the passport was valid for travel to the UK, even though it's got the words "European Union" on it in three different languages, one of which is French.

FlyingDutchman6666

Looks like it's still there:
http://www.aircanada.com/en/travelin...ldoc.html#-int

iaink

So it is, I must have missed it. Thanks.

I saw this bit and missed the earlier bit...

Still, its A-C, too much to expect the website not to carry contradictory statements!

victorfoxtrot

That's the thing....it's kind of clear as mud. I too saw the bit on AC's site that says people from visa-waiver countries are ok, but then further down it says all PR's must carry a valid PR card or risk not being boarded......very contradictory. Am currently on hold to AC to find out a definitive answer.

Former Lancastrian

Here are some more revealing insights from CIC and their Manuals

2.1. Objectives of the PR card
The PR card was designed to:
• stop abuse of the Immigrant Visa and Record of Landing (IMM 1000) by individuals,
people-smuggling organizations, and potential terrorists and criminals;
• introduce a secure, machine-readable document, easily verified by airlines and foreign control agencies in accordance with international standards;
• implement a secure process for issuance;
• confirm the status of permanent residents for return travel to Canada.

The first PR cards were issued on June 28, 2002, the day IRPA came into force, replacing the paper Immigrant Visa and Record of Landing document [IMM 1000] previously issued to all permanent residents. The PR card increases Canada’s border security by improving the integrity of the immigration process. It also provides cardholders with a convenient and reliable means of demonstrating their permanent resident status when travelling to Canada with commercial transportation companies in a format that conforms to international document standards designed to facilitate examination.

3.2. Other regulatory provisions: Part 17 (Transportation) and Part 21 (Repeals and Coming into Force)
The PR card is included as a prescribed document in R259(f) as part of the IRP Regulations concerning transportation. As such, it is one of the documents that may be required for examination by commercial transportation companies (“transporters”), in accordance with the instructions in ENF 15, section 5.4:

The responsibility to ensure that a passenger is properly documented applies from the time the transporter is boarding at the final embarkation point before arrival in Canada until that person is presented for examination at a Canadian POE

I guess until a passenger is refused boarding and takes the airline, CBSA/CIC to court or a CBSA officer issues a penalty to a carrier for carrying a person not correctly documented (highly unlikely) then we will never find out and we will just keep going around in circles.
There again for a career limiting move I could always test the waters so to speak.

iaink

Its basically there because its too much to expect airline / bus company employees to know a fake / forged IMM1000 from a real one, right?

Im not sure what the quote revealed other than government writers get paid by the word...

Former Lancastrian

Now to add to the confusion they have just recently changed the COPR forms
PMM do you not have a client who is willing to take this to court

exenglishman

If its any help, I went to Cuba last year in February whilst I was in Canada on my IEC. They admitted me fine, briefly glancing at my visa before closing it back in my passport, on the way back they didnt even look at it, they just wanted to see my passport for confirmation of identity, didnt look like they cared at all and all they seemed to want was my 20 pesos for leaving the country...(leaving tax) it was just as quick for me to check in as all the other canadians on the plane. This was with Air Transat too.