Residency
#46
Just Joined
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 28
Re: Residency
Please humour me. I respect both of your experience. Just can't entirely work out what you are stating.
Can you both answer these 2 questions yesno.
1) If I obtain the Hungarian registration card successfully do I become a tax resident of Hungary?
2) If I obtain the Hungarian registration card successfully do I become domiciled in Hungary?
#47
Re: Residency
You need your S1 form showing you paid into the UK system, your residency card (aka registration card, residence certificate, registration certificate) and address card. There is a fee of a couple of thousand forints.
#48
Just Joined
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 28
Re: Residency
http://hungary.angloinfo.com/moving/...y-eu-citizens/
I don't think it helps the confusion that the Hungarian immigration office call it 'right of residence'
http://net.jogtar.hu/jr/gen/hjegy_do...id=A0700001.TV
It seems quite likely to me that 'right of residence' is a misnomer from translation, evidenced by the rest of the poor translation of important specific technical information in that document.
That document only mentions residents (different from residence) as "the EEA nationals who have continuously and legally resided for five years in Hungary,".
Given what I have read I do not believe you become a 'resident' from registration.
What Mitzyboy is talking about is tax residence and domicile, which is different from being a 'resident', as I think Rural is posting about.
Last edited by Yeoman; Sep 6th 2013 at 4:39 pm.
#49
Re: Residency
Yes, "Right of Residence" is a misleading description as you already have that right, simply by holding an EU passport.
#51
Re: Residency
Wow. I'm sorry for banging on about this if it turns out I have missed something.
I'm perfectly open to believing I'm wrong on this, but what you are stating is contradictory to the governement links I have provided, and also it does not seem logical.
I have seen no government sites confirming what you are saying.
Where did you get this Hungarian quote from? Where can you find it written that ones status becomes "resident" after registering?
Just because the Hungarian words translate to "right of residence" isn't enough proof for me that one is legally a tax resident upon registering. I wonder if "the right of" is key in that sentence. Different from "you become" for instance.
It makes no sense whatsoever that there is a 'rule' stating: that one becomes tax resident of Hungary if one spends 183 days per year in Hungary. Yet you are stating that if one registers, one becomes tax resident? yesno?
Given one is legally obliged to register within 90 days, do you see how the "if one spends 183 days per year in Hungary" rule would become redundant...
Not logical to me.
Ok, so you are arguing I will be domiciled because of registration?
You are arguing the Spanish residents will be domiciled but not be tax residents?
Then I think you go on to contradict the above by saying I will be a tax resident. Or is this because of the specific scenario "because if you have no property in the UK and have property in Hungary"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitual_residence
Therefore given my specific scenario you are arguing that after registering I would become domiciled and a tax resident of Hungary?
If the laws are a grey area. I can settle at that, and I will take the least risky option.
I never suggested or inferred going against the 'rules'/'laws'. I'm challenging whether you both have got the 'rules' correct.
I'm not pig headedly arguing a point. You haven't provided me with clarity or any links / information to confirm what you are both saying, and I'm not sure you and Rural even agree on the points you are making?
Can you both answer these 2 questions yesno.
1) If I obtain the Hungarian registration card successfully do I become a tax resident of Hungary?
2) If I obtain the Hungarian registration card successfully do I become domiciled in Hungary?
Thanks for your time
I'm perfectly open to believing I'm wrong on this, but what you are stating is contradictory to the governement links I have provided, and also it does not seem logical.
I have seen no government sites confirming what you are saying.
Where did you get this Hungarian quote from? Where can you find it written that ones status becomes "resident" after registering?
Just because the Hungarian words translate to "right of residence" isn't enough proof for me that one is legally a tax resident upon registering. I wonder if "the right of" is key in that sentence. Different from "you become" for instance.
It makes no sense whatsoever that there is a 'rule' stating: that one becomes tax resident of Hungary if one spends 183 days per year in Hungary. Yet you are stating that if one registers, one becomes tax resident? yesno?
Given one is legally obliged to register within 90 days, do you see how the "if one spends 183 days per year in Hungary" rule would become redundant...
Not logical to me.
Ok, so you are arguing I will be domiciled because of registration?
You are arguing the Spanish residents will be domiciled but not be tax residents?
Then I think you go on to contradict the above by saying I will be a tax resident. Or is this because of the specific scenario "because if you have no property in the UK and have property in Hungary"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitual_residence
Therefore given my specific scenario you are arguing that after registering I would become domiciled and a tax resident of Hungary?
If the laws are a grey area. I can settle at that, and I will take the least risky option.
I never suggested or inferred going against the 'rules'/'laws'. I'm challenging whether you both have got the 'rules' correct.
I'm not pig headedly arguing a point. You haven't provided me with clarity or any links / information to confirm what you are both saying, and I'm not sure you and Rural even agree on the points you are making?
Can you both answer these 2 questions yesno.
1) If I obtain the Hungarian registration card successfully do I become a tax resident of Hungary?
2) If I obtain the Hungarian registration card successfully do I become domiciled in Hungary?
Thanks for your time
You are confusing matters I think.
You CAN be a domiciled resident of an EU country, but not a tax resident. Thats what I am telling you that Spanish ex pats are doing in some cases. They spend less than the required time in Spain for tax residency, but more than the required time for domiciled residency, i.e. more than 90 days but less than half a year.
In your particular scenario you said you would spend 9 months in Hungary and 3 in the UK. That means you have exceeded the time limit for tax residency and domicile residency so you would be both. Your habitual home would be Hungary as you have no home in the UK
Its best not to use Wikipedia definitions for something like this though, dont you think
#52
Re: Residency
You have the "right of residence" and can stay here for three months. You have "the right of residence" for more than three months so long as you comply with certain conditions - income, health care etc.
#53
Re: Residency
There is a difference between a right and getting permission for something. It is like getting a driving licence. In UK everyone over 17 has the right to apply for a driving licence. It does not mean everyone can have a driving licence as it is conditional on health status etc. The licence itself is just the permission and has various conditions, the right only has one condition, minimum age. The right of an EU citizen to live in any EU country only has one condition, that they hold an EU passport or ID card. The permission to live in a specific country will have multiple conditions, such as those mentioned. I'm not trying to be pedantic, rights are very important and often hard won freedoms for people and they should not be confused with anything else.
#54
Just Joined
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 28
Re: Residency
I was completely unaware of the differences between being a 'resident', having tax residence and being domiciled up until #30 of this thread, so I'm pleased we've engaged in this conversation. Thank you all for that.
One last thing. You mention exceeding time limit on domicile residency above and you have stated "they are still domiciled residents because they have to be after 90 days." in reference to the Spanish expats in an earlier post.
But I don't think this is as clear as you make it sound. See http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/international/domicile.htm as posted before. Domicile seems to be purposefully more subjective than a fixed period of time as you mention. The wikipedia link on 'Habitual residence' seems the same. May I ask what leads you to definitely think they will be considered domiciled after 90 days?
Its the best link I could find. I probably don't fully understand the term but I assumed you used it in the same context as domicile after reading that wiki article. Its probably not the best description but if you have a better one, I welcome it to help my understanding further.
Last edited by Yeoman; Sep 6th 2013 at 6:04 pm.
#55
Re: Residency
Rural has actually been contradicting you and confusing me if you look back through the more recent posts. That's what I was referring to in regards to contradictions.
One last thing. You mention exceeding time limit on domicile residency above and you have stated "they are still domiciled residents because they have to be after 90 days." in reference to the Spanish expats in an earlier post.
But I don't think this is as clear as you make it sound. See http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/international/domicile.htm as posted before. Domicile seems to be purposefully more subjective than a fixed period of time as you mention. The wikipedia link on 'Habitual residence' seems the same.
Its the best link I could find. I probably don't fully understand the term but I assumed you used it in the same context as domicile after reading that wiki article. Its probably not the best description but if you have a better one, I welcome it to help my understanding further.
One last thing. You mention exceeding time limit on domicile residency above and you have stated "they are still domiciled residents because they have to be after 90 days." in reference to the Spanish expats in an earlier post.
But I don't think this is as clear as you make it sound. See http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/international/domicile.htm as posted before. Domicile seems to be purposefully more subjective than a fixed period of time as you mention. The wikipedia link on 'Habitual residence' seems the same.
Its the best link I could find. I probably don't fully understand the term but I assumed you used it in the same context as domicile after reading that wiki article. Its probably not the best description but if you have a better one, I welcome it to help my understanding further.
You are referring to HMRC site for the domicile discussion. If you live (in this case) in Spain then its the Spanish authorities that decide when you become a resident. The time you spend in a country to achieve that doesnt have to be continuous. Thats why, in Spain, people keep their ferry receipts etc. It will be down to THEM to prove it you see, should the need arise
In 2012/2013 I was a tax resident in the UK, yet I was deemed a domiciled resident in Spain because I spent more than 90 days there in that period. Being a tax resident means that you have to subject yourself to their requirements. I'm not fully sure of therm in Hungary, but you should be aware that in Spain that means that you are subject to Spanish Inheritance Tax, your worldwide income is subject to Spanish Tax, and there is a Wealth Tax as well which is levied on all assets, worldwide. Luckily the scope is too high at the moment to affect the normal ex pat, but it shows you should do your research well before moving to another country
#56
Re: Residency
As with Spain, Hungary has it's regulations regards residency and tax liability or so the solicitor and accountant tell me and who am I to argue
#57
Just Joined
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 28
Re: Residency
Because as I said previously, time period is not the only factor, and it is much more complex than that according to the HMRC link.
Are you saying this >90 day time period is specific to Spain for domicile?
Also out of interest. How did you find out your domicile? On what documentation is it stated?
#58
Re: Residency
YES. This is why I am being annoying and asking millions of specific questions to get clarification on fundamental points.
Are you saying this >90 day time period is the factor in determining ones domicile?
Because as I said previously, time period is not the only factor, and it is much more complex than that according to the HMRC link.
Are you saying this >90 day time period is specific to Spain for domicile?
Also out of interest. How did you find out your domicile? On what documentation is it stated?
Are you saying this >90 day time period is the factor in determining ones domicile?
Because as I said previously, time period is not the only factor, and it is much more complex than that according to the HMRC link.
Are you saying this >90 day time period is specific to Spain for domicile?
Also out of interest. How did you find out your domicile? On what documentation is it stated?
No, I'm not saying it is specific to Spain .. that was an example. It may well vary country to country, but I think someone said earlier it is 90 days in Hungary
I'm not sure how you mean, how did I find out my domicile. I received a certificate to say I had signed on the foreigners list (residency) in Spain. That has my ID number on it. When I came to the UK in 2012/13 I advised the tax office I was back in the UK. I deregistered for tax purposes in Spain, yet the domicile residency certificate still exists in Spain even though I have been back in the UK now for some time.
#59
BE Enthusiast
Joined: May 2008
Location: Hungary
Posts: 306
Re: Residency
Well it's been a beautiful day in Hungary today and I am on my third glass of Kekfrankos. I am renowned for project planning to the nth degree but seriously if you want to move to Hungary, a country incidentally that I love, you need to just get over here and try it out. The bureaucracy will sort itself out one way or another. All you basically need to know is that if you stay here for more than three months you should make yourself known to the local immigration office.
This thread has intrigued me all day but its Friday night the weekend beckons and I am going to have another glass of wine. Cheers
This thread has intrigued me all day but its Friday night the weekend beckons and I am going to have another glass of wine. Cheers
#60
Re: Residency
Well I'll join you Cathy because I'm getting that - "isn't that what I said in not so many words" feeling
Light relief though from dealing with immigration queries from Iranians and Indians - not to mention a suspect break caliper - where's that bottle
Light relief though from dealing with immigration queries from Iranians and Indians - not to mention a suspect break caliper - where's that bottle