duztee

The definition of bureaucracy is 'excessively complicated administrative procedure' and that my friends perfectly describes EDF (Hungary)

I have a 3 phase supply on 25 Amp fuses into the house which is fine and problem free but the separate 10 Amp fused supply going to my garages trips out regularly.
So I asked EDF to upgrade it to 16 Amps which will be more than adequate.

First I had to employ an electrician to inspect the whole property and certify all the wiring and fitting, this done EDF eventually arrived after 2 weeks of phoning everyday, (and everyday they said 'tomorrow')

After less than 2 minutes the decision was that No they cannot just upgrade the garage supply they must change the whole lot to 36 Amps (should that be 32A?)
which means that all 5 supply wires from the pole to the house have to be changed to heavier cables. They (of course, this being Hungary) do not do this job and I need to contact a different contractor.

This was when I discovered that Hungarian regulations insist that the supply runs inside the wall, so they cannot just fit the new cables to the outside of the wall, and the 5 new larger cables are not going to fit through the conduit of the old ones, result is that almost certainly they have to cut open the walls that I have recently decorated!

And now it seems that I might also be required to have a complete new meter box fitted!

There are days when I really do hate this country! is it really so difficult just to stick a 16 Amp fuse in?

Peter_in_Hungary

If the supply to the garage is tripping out but you are not going over 10A then it could be that the fuse circuit breaker has gone 'soft', they do that after a time. 10A will give you 2300w but if you are starting a motor the inrush current can be twice or more than the rated load, this is spike is often enough to trip old circuit breakers. Old circuit breakers will also trip out if you run them close to their limit for a time. The cure is to replace the circuit breaker which will be done free by EDF if you raise a complaint that the circuit breaker keeps tripping.

Another thought - a 3 phase 25A supply will have 3 x 25A circuit breakers on the EDF side of the meter, then you have the meter then you have your domestic fuses. So where is the 10A breaker for the garage? If it is after the meter then its your circuit breaker and nothing to do with EDF, change it yourself if you are competent or otherwise get a local electrician to do it,m making sure that the wire to the garage will carry 16A.

I don't see how you can have a 3 x 25A supply with a 3 phase meter and then have another 10A supply through the same meter, it would need a separate meter, which if it does need upgrading then this should not involve the 3 x 25A supply so maybe just a new box for the 10A supply and meter.

fidobsa

I think I would have just run my own new supply to the garage and ignored the existing one if it is something you would have to break seals etc to get at.
I would have got the supply to my house upgraded until I was told I would have to have a new pole on the roof and a new meter box. I've seen some of the butchery they do to peoples houses and it would not surprise me if there is significant weakening of the structure.

duztee

Yes Peter the garage supply is a completely separate supply with it's own meter, which is why I cannot understand the problem. especially since all 5 incoming wires appear the same size, so I would assume that the cable can easily support an increase to 16 A.

Unless the problem is that the 3 phases and separate 10A supply (4 cables) share a common return cable (No.5)

The tripping problem has been exasperated Peter by changing to fluorescent lights which draw a short heavy demand when switched on. the solution at the moment is to turn the lights on before other items, but it is still an indication that the system is working very close to it's limit. and I didn't realise the solution was going to be so dramatic!

Thanks Fid you really know how to cheer a chap up! :-)

fidobsa

You could still just have the garage meter disconnected and put in an MCB from one of the main house phases, preferably one that is currently only lightly loaded. It might even work out a bit cheaper on bills if you are paying a standing charge on the garage supply.

Peter_in_Hungary

Given that you have a separate supply and meter to the garage I would start by complaining to EDF that the circuit breaker keeps tripping out with a load less than 10A and you suspect that their circuit breaker is faulty. They should come and change the CB for free. The EDF maintance chaps know that the CBs go soft after a few years. (I had this problem with a 7A 3 phase motor tripping out the 10A CB (on a 10A/16A/25A supply) EDF changed the 10A CB and no more problems).

If it doesn't solve the problem you could run a new lead from the house to provide additional power points in the garage (safer to use the same phase as the garage) or run a 3 phase cable to give 3 phase in the garage should you need it and take a 1 phase spur off to provide additional power (again same phase as the existing power) If you run an additional supply you do not need to use armoured cable if you don't want to, cable suitable for underground is OK. Armoured is only needed if EDF are involved.

If you have 3 phase used as 3 individual phases then the common return should be 1.7 times the diameter of the phases. - I bet its not! (look in the street at the overhead wires, I bet they are all the same size) If it's not then you can get problems with voltage drop under high load and you can feel tingling on things like water pipes as the supply tries to balance out the inefficiencies. If you have this problem the fix is to ground everything in sight with 6mm2 cable back to the meter box where you provide an additional earth by driving 2 x 3m galvanised 1/2 pipes vertically in to the ground and using this as an additional earth. This issue is as much (or more) EDF's problem but they won't want to do anything about it!!

If the garage supply is in the same box as the rest I can see that EDF might want the whole lot upgraded, but you could try telling then that you only want the 10A supply upgraded and then provide a new box for this only (if you still want to upgrade the garage the expensive way)

duztee

Peter. Thanks for taking the time to send useful/helpful advice, it is much appreciated.

Both meters are in the same box which is set into the wall, with all wiring feeding into the rear, so virtually impossible to gain access without breaking EDF seals, which I suppose is the idea or an unscrupulous person might tap in before the meter!
So no real access to take a 3 phase feed, I do have an outdoor type socket fitted in the box so I could use a single feed from this to the garage, but it is less than idea solution.

and Yes all 5 wires from pole to house are the same size.

I will speak with EDF again to see if they will agree to a simpler solution.

Peter_in_Hungary

In the meter box you should have the meters with the 3 phase meter having 3 x 25A CBs either alongside or below the meter and the 1 phase meter with its 10A CB again either alongside or below the meter. These CBs will be sealed and belong to EDF and are electrically before the meter and you are not allowed to touch these or the meter.

There should be other CBs that belong to you, usually located above the meter. These CBs are electrically after the meter, these will be the circuit CBs for the property. I would expect a 10A CB associated with the garage circuit and 1 or more CBs associated with the rest of the property. The rest of the property CBs could be 16A or 25A (or something else) depending upon the wiring. It is these CBs that you are entitled to change or modify the wiring from. So it would be from this point that any of your modifications such as additional circuits can happen without the involvement of EDF

I am assuming that the garage CB that is nuisance tripping is the one belonging to EDF, that is the sealed one. If that is the case it would be worth complaining to EDF as a new one may solve the problem (assuming that you are not trying to draw more than 10A) If it's your CB that's tripping change it and see what happens. CBs should tolerate spikes and in-rush currents from motors without tripping but as they get old this ability fails.

(Of course if the problem only arose after fitting the fluorescent lights it may be a faulty light fitting!)

If the meter box set in the wall is of the old type (wood construction?) then EDF's rules allow them to do maintenance on the existing but any changes would require an upgrade to current standards. It's their way of getting the infrastructure up to current standards. It is also my understanding of the regulations that you can have a new meter box free standing at or near the boundary and I also understand that with the provision of the new box the first 15m of buried cable to the meter box is at EDF's cost, of course anything after the meter is down to you. So if the worst happens this my be an option for consideration.

duztee

EDF arrived yesterday morning an cut of my power from the pole, the work crew then arrived to remove the old cables.
Several hours of grunting, heaving and probably swearing resulted in 5 much larger wires installed without needing to cut into any walls.
EDF returned to reconnect the new wires to the pole and the meters.

The problematic 10A CB that I wanted uprated to 16A now boasts a very pretty purple 32A CB. so no more problems there then!
BUT!!!!
the 3 phases going to the house have the same 25A CB's originally fitted, where is the logic or intelligence to this? Why bother to change all 5 wires if they only upgrade 1 CB, or if the wire is now good for 32A why not fit 32A CB's to all.
As always the Hungarian logic has left me bemused and not a little confused.

Rural Hungary

Not just wooden construction, we have had newer meters replaced, they gave a lifespan for the meter which I think was 10 years though don't quote me on that as it was mentioned a couple of years ago. The new free standing boxes are a law unto themselves! I thought I had it sussed in that they had to be taken underground only if the cable went across the road - which made sense. However, several upgrades later and I've concluded it is totally random and there is no logic to it at all You're right in that 15m is free then you pay for each meter thereafter and guaranteed they can never go the stortest route into the property

Peter_in_Hungary

I've never had electricity done but if its anything like gas the buried cable will need to be planned and a drawing produced (so that they can find it in years to come) and it has to go in straight lines with right angle turns only and a warning tape laid above it (to give the JCB driver a clue)

Rural Hungary

It wasn't as detailed as the gas, no official planner was required so if drawings were made it would have been by EON themselves. The most frustrating one was going in a straight line but they wouldn't take it to the nearest convenient point and instead took it the longest way possible - still don't know why but hey ho. Even more confusing was that two months later, a property in the same street didn't have to go underground, no explanation was forthcoming as to why. Admittedly, this was just as the new regulations came into force and even the masters we deal with weren't 100% on the new regs.

fidobsa

I had new meters a few months ago, I assume because the old ones had reached the end of their specified lifespan. The new ones are in the old wooden box and the cheap rate one is still the old mechanical type but the full rate one is LCD and is read by taking a photo.

fidobsa

I just found an example of the kind of butchery I mentioned, posted by RH a few years ago, post #262:


http://britishexpats.com/forum/hunga...494938/page18/