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Old Sep 16th 2017, 12:17 pm   #1
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Default Is there an equivalent of Power of Attorney in France?

We had POA for several, sadly long gone, elderly relatives and it was very necessary in most cases. We know we are long past the age when we should have something similar here.

However neither our notaire nor our financial advsor seem to be able to come up with such an arrangement which includes the UK residents we would want to appoint - ie French speaking and writing but trusted completely by us.

Has anyone else gone down this route and if so, how?
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Old Sep 16th 2017, 3:13 pm   #2
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Default Re: Is there an equivalent of Power of Attorney in France?

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Originally Posted by grannybunz View Post
We had POA for several, sadly long gone, elderly relatives and it was very necessary in most cases. We know we are long past the age when we should have something similar here.

However neither our notaire nor our financial advsor seem to be able to come up with such an arrangement which includes the UK residents we would want to appoint - ie French speaking and writing but trusted completely by us.

Has anyone else gone down this route and if so, how?
Hi, "tutelle" springs to mind, but on reading
https://www.service-public.fr/partic...osdroits/F2120
it doesn't look as though one of you can decide in advance, and if the conditions are met with, the French Juge might not accept tuteurs who don't live in France.
"Procuration" also springs to mind, for example to sign bank cheques/RIBs, etc...but the person concerned would have to be nearby to deal with the paperwork.
Hope some one will come along to suggest a way, as it's an issue which concerns most retired expats here....

P.S. My late English neighbour gave me Procuration for her Bank. It involved a meeting with her Bank Manager, in the nursing home, and was quite straighforward (apart from the inevitable stack of paper to initial and sign).

Last edited by dmu; Sep 16th 2017 at 3:19 pm.
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Old Sep 17th 2017, 3:42 pm   #3
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Default Re: Is there an equivalent of Power of Attorney in France?

https://www.notaires.fr/en/lasting-power-attorney

I guess the issue might be having someone outside of France
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Old Sep 17th 2017, 4:58 pm   #4
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Default Re: Is there an equivalent of Power of Attorney in France?

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Originally Posted by petitefrancaise View Post
https://www.notaires.fr/en/lasting-power-attorney

I guess the issue might be having someone outside of France
This is very interesting (and surprising that gb's Notaire wasn't aware of it!).
Details in French are given in
https://www.service-public.fr/partic...sdroits/F16670
Although it isn't expressly stated that non-French Mandataires are excluded, I would think a Mandataire living outside of France would have problems performing his/her "mission".
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Old Sep 18th 2017, 8:38 am   #5
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Default Re: Is there an equivalent of Power of Attorney in France?

We have seen this information, but thank you for posting the link. I think the notaire is lining his firm up to make some extra dosh.

We would prefer two "attorneys" as we had for my parents and relatives. Our daughter is an obvious choice as she owns a house in our hameau and qualified iin French and English law - although she doesn't work in this field these days.

The other would be my s-i-l who is much youngr than us and also speaks and writes excellent French.

More investigations neede I feel.
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Old Sep 20th 2017, 9:55 am   #6
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Default Re: Is there an equivalent of Power of Attorney in France?

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Originally Posted by grannybunz View Post
We have seen this information, but thank you for posting the link. I think the notaire is lining his firm up to make some extra dosh.

We would prefer two "attorneys" as we had for my parents and relatives. Our daughter is an obvious choice as she owns a house in our hameau and qualified iin French and English law - although she doesn't work in this field these days.

The other would be my s-i-l who is much youngr than us and also speaks and writes excellent French.

More investigations neede I feel.
GrannyB,
Just seen this. I don't think the notaire is lining his firm up to make some extra dosh, I'd put money on it, especially if you have a daughter who sounds as if she would tick all the boxes to satisfactorily perform guardianship duties.
There are certainly very reputable, honest people engaged in the welfare of persons requiring guardianship, however (generally unknown to the public) there is also widespread tuelary abuse, and it's not unknown for some cases to come before a criminal court.
Have to dash out today, but I'll get back to you with more detailed info, preferably by PM.
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Old Sep 20th 2017, 11:58 am   #7
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Default Re: Is there an equivalent of Power of Attorney in France?

Thanks for the reply but I think we have solved it. We have been advised by the bureau to which we must submit the completed documentation that if we choose DD then she fills in the second half of the form and we submit them. There will be no questions asked. So I think a) we were correct in our assumptions and b) we don't need to "trouble" notaire any further. I suspect we will be looking for a new notaire.
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Old Sep 21st 2017, 1:48 am   #8
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Default Re: Is there an equivalent of Power of Attorney in France?

PF directed me to this thread. Congratulations on being on the ball about the future, I wish my parents had been so thoughtful.
Our situation was fraught as both my parents became incapacitated with no such legal documents in place. Getting procurement to access their financial accounts was not difficult and the banker who helped us, actually drove to the hospital where my Dad was taken to witness his signature. Likewise for my Mum who was taken to a local nursing home. As we were planning on taking our parents back to the UK, we were strongly advised by several people (including the nursing home) not seek tutelle as the Judge could appoint anyone he wanted to oversee their affairs and that person would be in charge of all of their finances. Apparently, not every guardian is honest. As we did not live in France or speak French, it was unlikely the judge would agree to us becoming their guardians
As your daughter is familiar with French law and both guardians speak French, I don't see an issue with not using a notaire, although it is advised apparently. Unfortunately none of our family could speak French, so we were reliant on help from the local expat community.
This is a link to very helpful guide on the Mandat process provided for American Expats https://www.americanbar.org/content/...thcheckdam.pdf

As you can see, once the Mandat become active, things become more complicated.

Good luck
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Old Sep 21st 2017, 8:33 pm   #9
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Default Re: Is there an equivalent of Power of Attorney in France?

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Originally Posted by grannybunz View Post
Thanks for the reply but I think we have solved it. We have been advised by the bureau to which we must submit the completed documentation that if we choose DD then she fills in the second half of the form and we submit them. There will be no questions asked. So I think a) we were correct in our assumptions and b) we don't need to "trouble" notaire any further. I suspect we will be looking for a new notaire.
Splendid if you've found a solution.
One other thought. As you obviously have 'your marbles' still reasonably intact, given that guardianship and curatorship do not carry the same consequences, you may wish to consider curatorship, which can be decided by the guardianship judge for your DD, especially for those who retain a capacity for reduced autonomy. This would lessen the burden on your DD until such time as full guardianship becomes necessary.
Another interesting link:
http://www.misesoustutelle.com/tutelle-curatelle/

The importance of honest guardianship is an issue which was very much highlighted by the media surrounding the Liliane Bettencourt case. I also note the death was reported today of that same L'Oreal heiress - reported to be the world's richest woman.
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Last edited by Tweedpipe; Sep 21st 2017 at 8:55 pm.
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 8:27 am   #10
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Default Re: Is there an equivalent of Power of Attorney in France?

Good point Tweedpipe..

I'll l send DD that link. I'm thankful she won't have that amount of money for which to be responsible!
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Old Sep 22nd 2017, 11:07 am   #11
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Default Re: Is there an equivalent of Power of Attorney in France?

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Good point Tweedpipe..

I'll l send DD that link. I'm thankful she won't have that amount of money for which to be responsible!
In that case you won't have many scavengers pecking at your door - unlike certain rich folk.
I've told Junior TP, whichever way he plays his cards, I'll bequeath him my Apple/Mac collection, and my overdraft........
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