EuroTrash

That must be a fairly recent and radical mindshift!
Up to last year I worked for a national training provider, teaching English to salarié(e)s as part of their annual vocational training entitlement. I thought I was pretty hot on grammar terms, having had a classical education (Latin and all that), but fielding my students' questions on grammatical structure certainly kept me on my toes They had all left school, obviously, but very recently in some cases, and they still very much needed to know grammar rules, why it's like this in this sentence but like that in that sentence etc.

EuroTrash

Perhaps a slight difference in terms of difficulty...

moonblues

Yes you need to understand how the language works, and if it's your own language you might need to take a step back and think on it and / or do some reading. Grammatical points are to be covered in College, however, the way it is recommended to be taught nowadays, is nowhere near as formal as it used to be. We talk about "reflexion sur la langue" You observe a language pattern in context and you get the students to understand the "rule" if you like. but that should take 5 minutes. some teachers might keep to full on grammar lessons, but these are not the inspectors' recommendations, and I don't find them effective. Today's English lessons should aim for : oral work, group work, a lot of interaction, and the use of English as a "tool" to be able to achieve a task.

you're right though, the older the student, and the higher the level (Post BAC), the more in depth and complex grammar teaching will become ( in theory you're not "supposed to" English grammar in Lycee, but in college).

dmu

Probably another of Najat's ideas!! (apologies sounding so familiar, but I have never managed to learn her surname, likewise NKM...)
I'm not qualified to teach but when I coached my daughters' Collège/Lycée friends in English, I couldn't have done it without knowing the French grammatical terms which they had mastered in Primaire, in order to explain to them what they had missed in class.
Thanks for the info re teaching in the UK. My step-granddaughter hasn't got her Licence yet, so she has time....

moonblues

I think it's a completely different approach to teacher training, though the training of teachers in France has moved on quite a bit.

Doing the PGCE back in 1998, was really hard, demanding, and a lot of work, but it was a massive work experience.

The CAPES is a competitive exam, to "select" future teachers based on their ability, to translate, write an essay, analyse documents and present orally the documents and how you'd use them in class etc. Pure theory.
The teacher training bit is done though the "Master MEEF" which you have to have in order to become "titulaire".

For me both trainings have been interesting and tough.
The big diff, is that you can have the QTS in the UK with the CAPES, but you can't be a "titulaire" in France with the UK qualifications...



no problem if her goal is to teach only in the UK, a degree is enough, and the PGCE ( one year)

dmu

My post crossed with yours.
Every French pupil I came across refused point blank to read out loud, let alone "speak" English when I encouraged them to. It may be encouraged at school nowadays, but as English isn't included in the Brevet, there's no incentive for them in Collège, and Lycéens have difficulties preparing for their Oral. At least in my experience, which I admit isn't recent....

moonblues

I understand, and you are touching on something really important! the level of anxiety experienced by students in a language class. They feel vulnerable, silly, inadequate, not competent enough. It's all about creating a safe environment for them to feel comfortable to express themselves in a foreign language. and it's not easy. there is a really interesting paper on the topic by Jane Arnold, "Affect in language learning." you can google it...

French pupils are now learning English in primary school, more and more effectively, and I am starting to see a marked improvement.

there is still the problem of the French obsession with perfection as in "don't make a mistake" = "ne pas faire de fautes". Speaking with no mistakes when you are learning is nearly impossible, and just makes students worried about it and being wrong, so they don't speak. they must be encouraged to accept mistakes as part of the learning process. This is what new teachers are taught.

the incentive really should be that we need to learn English, it's useful, and it's a lovely language

Tweedpipe

It's very satisfying to see a new poster here who really appears to 'know their stuff'. So to Moonblues - a warm welcome from me too.
The way you write too is very impressive, and I suspect that (like my son) when you speak French or English one would have difficulty in detecting any trace of a 'foreign' accent.
Your comment, "there is still the problem of the French obsession with perfection as in 'don't make a mistake'" caught my eye. I never learnt to speak or write French institutionally, just picked it up by working here. With no sound French tuition, writing is my bête noire. I hate making a mistake when writing in French, almost obsessed by it, and using LeBonCoin frequently for buying and selling, have to ensure it's 99.9% correct before pressing 'send'. Crazy really, because so many other ads are riddled with howlers.
Regarding the perceived 'French obsession with perfection', I have to stifle a slight smile in wondering where many government ministers went to school....

petitefrancaise

WOW!!!

Welcome Moonblues! What a fabulous contribution you have already made. I wish my kids had had more teachers like you.
I was sceptical about the lycee teaching without capes because a very good (french) friend of mine was a French/history teacher at a secondary school in London and when he returned home to France he found it impossible to get any work teaching at all without the capes. His English was excellent after having done his History BA Hons in London and then his PGCE and taught for 11 years but it took him 4 years to get the CAPES...

Anyway, welcome again.

moonblues

thank you very much for the welcome I just happen to know about teaching.... I would not be so much help in the other threads !!
My English husband tells me I have lost my French accent a long time ago, he still cries over it .....
I understand about your concern over writing on "Le bon coin" perfectly well, people don't know you and you want to give the best impression, and it's only natural. The problem is when people strop talking because they're scared of what people might think...

"I have to stifle a slight smile in wondering where many government ministers went to school...."

Hahaha!

moonblues

thank you
The CAPES is tedious to get... Did he try to teach history? or English? Normally they want you to have a degree in the subject you want to teach...
I did not to want to teach in France without the CAPES personally because you work the same and you're paid much less., but it's a good stepping stone ...

petitefrancaise

He teaches English.
Another french friend took it and passed it first time but my goodness she worked so hard. , she also got her degree in the Uk, taught in the UK and then moved to France where she and her English husband both got jobs teaching at a private international school. Not a great situation since the school have you over a barrel - not particularly well paid but hardly any chance of working anywhere else either.

moonblues

that's really unfortunate!
there is an "easier" version of the capes for those who have been supply teachers for a few years... I don't know too much about the details, but it's called *capes interne* as opposed to *capes externe*

morpeth

I saw something advertised saying France has a shortage of teachers of Spanish, does anyone know about this ? My wife teaches Spanish online at an American university and would love to teach in France. Does system value a Masters in Linguistics and a Masters in Teaching Spanish as sufficient qualification ? Would a teacher of Spanish need to know much French ?

moonblues

I don't know much personally about a shortage of teachers of Spanish... I googled it though, and there are very recent news articles in the French press about a shortage indeed. (link: En manque de profs d'espagnol, l'académie de Versailles s'en remet � l'ambassade de l'Uruguay )

and another article here (Pénurie de professeurs d'espagnol en Mayenne ) explaining it's due to the curriculum changes this year... students start a second language a year earlier in "cinquieme".

There might also be a greater shortage in the less sought after "academies" such as Creteil, Versailles...

A Masters in anything is OK, to become "titulaire" but it's not required to become a supply teacher... as long as you have a degree in the subject you want to teach...

As for the amount of French required as a supply teacher, I think knowing some French would be good. All lessons are supposed to take place in the target language though, which helps. Learning French when you speak Spanish should be fairly quick. I would apply anyway, because if they are desperate for teachers, it might be a good opportunity!

To become a fully qualified teacher it would be different, your French must be very good, first it's one of the professional requirements, and your French is assessed when you take the CAPES...

hope that helps.

EDITED to add:
Another article ( http://www.ouest-france.fr/bretagne/...diants-4490756) about the shortage of physics and Spanish teachers in Brittany, they're even asking students in their third year at Uni...... back in September.